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Black Caviar VS Frankel

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  • #20992
    Leeknowles1Leeknowles1
    Member
    • Total Posts 100

    Before we start the Debate, we know it is 99% unlikely they will meet, and even if there was an opportunity, both sides have too much to lose, its likely that BC will go for the british champion sprint series ie. July cup, Jubilee…

    But i think she would get 1m2f over in australia, mainly because im not sure how good they are over there, she beat midas touch who was quite handy over here, however that doesnt help as midas was a mile and a quarter/mile and a half horse running over 7f.. shes never been off the bridal and has a record furlong over there,

    She looks a fantastic mare, and i have no doubt she is one of the best sprinters ever.

    But lets go into an imaginary world where frankel and BC hit the ascot stright neck and neck over a mile, in these situations who wins? Frankels turn of foot is devestating, however Bc has never come off the bridal, although on the bride she picks up like a dream,

    Frankel Personally over a mile i still think Frankel could take her,

    over further he would destroy her, Its never likely to happen but we can dream…

    Take off your union jack hat and look at it from a neutral…

    Who is the best specimen??!

    #391463
    JollypJollyp
    Blocked
    • Total Posts 541

    Hello Lee,
    I will start the ball rolling,and it is a good fair post by you.At this stage if they met a mile say at Ascot,Frankel would be a deserving favourite pure and simply because he is proven at the hard mile.I think BC would get the mile there and may win,but if Frankel proved too good at the mile it would’t surprise me.My reasoning is that she is so relaxed i think she could get 10f here and run it with a brilliant last sprint which to my mind gets her the hard mile there.Frankel as yet is not proven to stay 10f,i had my doubts until his last win,i think though he will get it no problem as like BC he is just so good.For mine his best win was when he beat Zoffany,he should have got beaten,but showed how good he was,he should have run about 8th after the tactics,Too hard to line them up,the mare looks like you could run her over 10f and she would relax and sprint like she does,so whilst trying not to be biased and maybe a little i will say Black Caviar.

    #391473
    Leeknowles1Leeknowles1
    Member
    • Total Posts 100

    she won over 7 on the bridal… who says she cant stay 10f?

    <!– m –>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39gE8Q0OIDw<!– m –>

    Her breeding,

    Bel esprit – 7f
    helsinge – out of an 9f mare
    and bel esprit out of miler royal acadamy, so he breeding suggests she could get 1m (1f more than shes been running over)

    Yet she wins on the bridal? plus they go a slow pace over there, hents why i said "over there" not sure about it in england…

    #391475
    Presto
    Member
    • Total Posts 315

    BC’s win was a sit sprint too. I’m sure she’d stay a strongly run 7f the way she cruised to the line but we didn’t learn a whole lot from that run.

    #391482
    Leeknowles1Leeknowles1
    Member
    • Total Posts 100

    BC’s win was a sit sprint too. I’m sure she’d stay a strongly run 7f the way she cruised to the line but we didn’t learn a whole lot from that run.

    exactly what i said/thought, problem is you cant really tell alot from her form as not alot of them come over here!

    #391497
    Coggy
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1234

    Largely hypothetical guys, as I too agree that it will never happen.
    Sir Henry has already opined that Frankel will stay further so thats quite simply good enough for me.
    Black Caviar certainly appears to be a fine animal, but Frankel is something amazing. Given a true run race, and both having equal luck in running then I only see a Frankel victory over 8 furlongs or 10 furlongs.
    Over a shorther distance would be slighlty more interesting.
    Anyway even if they don’t meet lets enjoy them for what they are and hope that they remain injury free.

    #391642
    slewmanslewman
    Member
    • Total Posts 199

    What I will say on this thread is one thing. Frankel has more to lose then Black Caviar. And here is my reason. Regardless what Black Caviar does now she is valued between $6-8 million as a broodmare. Frankel on the other hand, if he stays unbeaten is worth $50-100 million as a sire, if he loses he’s probably worth $30-50 million. Khalid Abdullah has more to lose.

    #391716
    AIC
    Member
    • Total Posts 116

    Black Caviar certainly appears to be a fine animal, but Frankel is something amazing. Given a true run race, and both having equal luck in running then I only see a Frankel victory over 8 furlongs or 10 furlongs.
    Over a shorther distance would be slighlty more interesting.

    Let me put it to you another way….over a shorter distance BC would pick Frankel up and carry him. I’m sure you think very highly of Frankel and the thought of him getting beat at any distance seems hard to imagine, but let me tell you Frankel is not racing Black Caviar over 1000-1200. If he does, he’s getting crushed, it’s that simple. And like someone else said there’s a lot of money to be made by Frankel staying unbeaten.

    BC as a sprinter is not just a fine animal she is the best sprinter you have ever seen. If you guys thought Starspangledbanner was good …..holy crap ……. he was in the top bunch of sprinters here but not a stand out or anything. BC is an absolute stand out! She’d beat him by 5 lengths on the bridle give her a kick and it’s out to 8! A fine animal you say? Ha ha she’s certainly that alright!!!

    Not sure you guys get what sort of a sprinting machine she is. She is right up there with the best Australia has ever had and she’s got claim to being the best. If that’s not comparable to Frankel then by cripes Frankel must be the reincarnation of pegasus or something.

    David Hayes (used to train in hong kong) was asked on tv on the weekend to compare BC and Frankel. He said he’s watched all of Frankels runs and Frankel does not destroy fields the way BC does. And re questioning who they are beating, he said he hasn’t heard of most of the horses Frankel is beating either!

    However having said that I can tell you if So You Think and BC raced here over 10f I’d be on the colt no doubt. I don’t share the confidence about her running a middle distance right out. I think she could win a race over 2000 but not beat the best over 2000 if you know what I mean.

    I think Frankel is a very good horse don’t get me wrong. But is he the best middle distance galloper of all time? Plenty of people are still questioning if he can stay that distance so I think that answers that question. BC though, there is minimal doubt that she is one of the greatest sprinters we’ve ever seen. I guess make of all that what you will but there is an opinion from the other side of the world…..for what it’s worth! :D

    #391722
    HimselfHimself
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3775

    Not sure you guys get what sort of a sprinting machine she is.

    Yes, you’re right – we are by and large quite a naive lot on here and our knowledge and perception of horse racing is tenuous at best. So this Black Caviar horse is really fast you say and something of a champion. :shock:

    Thanks for that – nice to know. :P

    A little learning is a very dangerous thing indeed. :wink:

    Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning

    #391723
    J17star
    Member
    • Total Posts 325

    Let me put it to you another way….over a shorter distance BC would pick Frankel up and carry him. I’m sure you think very highly of Frankel and the thought of him getting beat at any distance seems hard to imagine, but let me tell you Frankel is not racing Black Caviar over 1000-1200. If he does, he’s getting crushed, it’s that simple. And like someone else said there’s a lot of money to be made by Frankel staying unbeaten.

    Frankel has never raced over shorter than 7F. He isn’t a sprinter. He probably wouldn’t beat BC over a spint distance, but then i don’t expect him to, because he isn’t a sprinter.

    BC as a sprinter is not just a fine animal she is the best sprinter you have ever seen. If you guys thought Starspangledbanner was good …..holy crap ……. he was in the top bunch of sprinters here but not a stand out or anything. BC is an absolute stand out! She’d beat him by 5 lengths on the bridle give her a kick and it’s out to 8! A fine animal you say? Ha ha she’s certainly that alright!!!

    We all agree

    David Hayes (used to train in hong kong) was asked on tv on the weekend to compare BC and Frankel. He said he’s watched all of Frankels runs and Frankel does not destroy fields the way BC does. And re questioning who they are beating, he said he hasn’t heard of most of the horses Frankel is beating either!

    The last sentence sums up how worthless his opinion is. If he doesn’t know the horses Frankel is beating, then clearly he isn’t very educated on Frankel as a topic. Im not going to pretend i know BC’s form, so i don’t commend. What some guy who used to train Hong Kong said means nothing. What does mean something is the esteem Sir Henry Cecil holds the colt in and what many very important people within our racing industry say ; he’s up their all time for European race horses.

    However having said that I can tell you if So You Think and BC raced here over 10f I’d be on the colt no doubt. I don’t share the confidence about her running a middle distance right out. I think she could win a race over 2000 but not beat the best over 2000 if you know what I mean.

    So You Think isn’t as good as Frankel. He’s a very very good horse, but considering the hype we heard when he came over, i must say i was disappointed.

    I think Frankel is a very good horse don’t get me wrong. But is he the best middle distance galloper of all time? Plenty of people are still questioning if he can stay that distance so I think that answers that question. BC though, there is minimal doubt that she is one of the greatest sprinters we’ve ever seen. I guess make of all that what you will but there is an opinion from the other side of the world…..for what it’s worth! :D

    Frankel isn’t a middle distance horse. He’s a Miler. In regards to European milers, he is ranked as one of the best ever. On ratings he’s very close to the best horse ever.

    Will Frankel stay further? We don’t know, but i expect 10Furlongs to be fine. I don’t expect BC and Frankel to meet, because they have very different agendas. BC needs to show her talents outside of Australia (rightly or wrongly, this is generally required before she can truely cement a place) whilst Frankel will be stepped up in Trip. I’d be very suprised if they met

    #391726
    AIC
    Member
    • Total Posts 116

    Not sure you guys get what sort of a sprinting machine she is.

    Yes, you’re right – we are by and large quite a naive lot on here and our knowledge and perception of horse racing is tenuous at best. So this Black Caviar horse is really fast you say and somewhat of a champion. :shock:

    Thanks for that – nice to know. :P

    A little learning is a very dangerous thing indeed. :wink:

    Ha ha!

    Hey can I ask you a question please?

    Is Royal Ascot the absolute pinnacle of world sprint racing? Kings stand a better or worse class race than the Lightning? July Cup head and shoulders above the Newmarket?

    Why don’t your sprinters travel down for the good prizemoney on offer in our plethora of top level sprint races?

    #391732
    HimselfHimself
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3775

    Hey can I ask you a question please?

    Is Royal Ascot the absolute pinnacle of world sprint racing? Kings stand a better or worse class race than the Lightning? July Cup head and shoulders above the Newmarket?

    Why don’t your sprinters travel down for the good prizemoney on offer in our plethora of top level sprint races?

    If Royal Ascot isn’t the absolute pinnacle, then it’s certainly among the finest race meetings in the world and ranks amongst the most colourful.

    During each day of the meeting you will see some of the best race horses in Europe compete against each other over distances from 5 furlongs to 2 and half miles plus – although The Derby and Oaks winner tend to bypass this meeting as it takes place too soon after Epsom – although a few of those two classics’ also-rans do look for compensation there.

    As for comparing the King’s Stand and July Cup ( at our Newmarket ) with two of your top sprints? Well, preference tends to be based on nationalistic bias. You no doubt prefer the Aussie races.

    The sprint race I look forward to most is the July Cup (6f) as it attracts the best sprinters in Europe ( and from OZ ) and other good horses dropping back in trip.

    Australia’s breeding industry is more inclined towards top class sprinters – much less so in Europe – hence why Australia has the finest sprinters in the world.
    In Europe, preference, including mine, is for the middle distance champions – sprinters less so. There is much more money to be made from breeding a top class middle distance stallion.

    Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning

    #391735
    jonnyrotten
    Member
    • Total Posts 22

    not a fair fight as aussie and yank sprinters are trained on steroids banned for training in uk

    #391741
    AIC
    Member
    • Total Posts 116

    The sprint race I look forward to most is the July Cup (6f) as it attracts the best sprinters in Europe ( and from OZ ) and other good horses dropping back in trip.

    I don’t think you have ever got our best sprinters racing at the top of their game to the July Cup.

    For the few that have tried, they have been up such a long time and with travel issues etc I’ve always thought they were almost at the end of their tether by the time Royal Ascot came along let alone Newmarket where they have looked thoroughly jaded.

    As for quality of the race, I find it absurdly arrogant that you guys assume your mile/middle distance/and staying races are all better quality than Aussie racing, but you also think your sprint racing is comparable too! If you merged the lightning field with the kings stand and could somehow eliminate travel issues I’m confident our last placegetter would beat home yours by many many lengths.

    We’ve had some very nice 3yo’s win our equivalent 1600m guineas too you know. Weekend Hussler, Whobegotyou, Lohnro, Encounter, Show a Heart, Redoutes Choice, Gods Own, Our Maizcay and Mahogony were all rated as good or probably better than Starspangledbanner who is the only caulfield guineas winner you’ve seen over in UK.

    If SSB can go and race impressively in UK then what do you think all of the above would’ve done?????

    As for that post above re steroids is it not enough that horses must be presented at the races free of any banned substances? Steroids are not allowed in Australian racing any more than they are in the UK. Steroids play about the same role in a horse’s conditioning in Australia as they do in England.

    #391746
    AIC
    Member
    • Total Posts 116

    And re a match race, I consider it just as unfair an advantage to Frankel for any suggested match race to be over 1600m up a hill truly run as it would be to BC were we to suggest it over 1000m flat course and let the pace dictate itself. I think somewhere in between would be a good test, that being 1400, flat course, no pacemakers, just let the horses show us what they can do under random circumstances with neither in their absolute comfort zone. Wouldn’t that be the best test? Or would it be too much to ask Team Frankel to have him go against her without all the balls being in his court.

    I’d LOVE to see that race. Would give me just as much joy as when SYT raced Workforce in the Eclipse. Australia’s best vs England’s best and the Aussie delivers the knock out blow!

    :lol:

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