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I’m not convinced Atlantic Jewell is a star. Not convinced any trainer based in Dubai knows how to train either. And finally I think Sepoy is a damn good horse but running him on synthetic in a hot sprint on the other side of the world in the middle of the desert to me is a recipe for trouble.
Although must say his prep for this race makes a lot more sense than Black Caviar’s. It looks as though he’s being specifically set for the race whereas BC I don’t think they know what they are setting her for – everything maybe?
Isn’t the Dubai race on a synthetic surface? I’d be thinking seriously about not doing that. She’s not a machine you can’t just take her anywhere you want any surface and expect the horse to show their best every time. I can’t believe Moody would back her up 3 weeks in a row 1400-1000-1400 from a race planning perspective it is sheer lunacy. I really hope he’s not reflecting on how much it may have taken out of her in a few months time, and how in hindsight he wouldn’t have done it if he had his time again.
I’m not trying to set her up for excuses for Ascot, most of us would agree this is a poorly planned campaign that would stuff most horses, probably for good. I saw some figures recently that said over the last year in Australia 148 or so horses had tried a 7 day back up from 1400-1000 and Black Caviar was the first horse to win when doing it.
0-147 is a pretty poor strikerate!
I thought I saw signs of weakness on Saturday and I’ve never seen it in her before. If she were mine I’d be missing Ascot (whats the point) and taking her to Japan and Hong Kong in December instead. Not as far to travel and gives her a lot more time to recover from this campaign. They won’t do it though she’ll get shuttled all round the world and fingers crossed when they do it Moody won’t end up musing how poorly planned this campaign was and how much it took out of her for later on.
A snippet of info possibly interesting to some, BC’s 2yo half brother won the juvenile race yesterday at Flemington. He is built like an absolute tank across the rear just like older sis…..they are saying the trait comes from the dam who is by desert sun.
Took a few strides to get going when asked but once he did he put paid to them quickly and looked fantastic across the line.
I’m a little concerned for her after watching that run. Super win no doubt but if any run could flatten her and jeopardise her campaign that was it. I’d be giving Ascot a miss personally I mean really what does she stand to gain by going there? That field yesterday was lengths better than anything she’ll encounter over there, she’s won the sprint championship of the world at Flemington yesterday. It’d be tragic if she had a tough campaign here with barely a break then went to ascot at the end of her tether.
folks i have been in top stables in the states and in oz where steroids were liberaly used pre-training, and i understand the reason they are used under vet supervision in those country’s, if you can find a vet that will supply you with them here let me know they are not used here fact, the aussies have some monster sprinters and BC looks the best of them and shes a great but its impossible to compare her with Frankel who has never contested a sprint and has never been on steroids
Frankel has never contested any race outside his comfort zone full stop. Why would he start against the best sprinter we’ve seen in years? If they clash it’ll be BC stepping outside her comfort zone certainly not the other way round.
Your steroids comments are laughable. I know my mare has had something in the past to stimulate her appetite but if you are saying no horse in the UK has ever had a steroid of any type and no vet in the UK could source you such a thing then I’m thinking you live in dreamland.
Dao dao was a very nice horse I’d love to have owned him but where has anyone suggested he was an elite class Aussie miler?
He’s no superstar but was good enough to run the best in Oz (Whobegotyou, Typhoon Tracy) to 2 lengths or closer. There’s probably a larger gap between the Cityscapes/Sahpresas and Excelebration/Frankel and I think I might be generous to Dao Dao as well. Once again hard to draw comparisons between Aussie and European milers but general impression in Asia is that the best Europeans are the cream of the crop.
Of course Oz sprinters are a breed apart which should be applauded, with Star Witness (beaten 4L by a hard-held Black Caviar) showing himself to be as good as the best European sprinters. Black Caviar and Hay List (and maybe Sepoy) a dominant tag-team in the sprints while Frankel and Excelebration rule the mile division.
Winning margins are not absolute proof, especially in Australia. It’s not as simple as horse a beat horse b by 2.75 lengths therefore blah blah blah
And why on earth would you use dao dao as the measuring stick when you have had Aussie milers actually race at ascot against your own? Haradasun and Starcraft ring any bells?
Yes but you keep thinking everything UK is lengths ahead of everything else….AIC, I commend your enthusiasm for all things Australian but you need to take a step back and view things objectively.
I think we all agree that Australia houses the best sprinters in the world – Black Caviar being the number one. No debate there.
You however, have to accept that the best 8f – 12f horses in the world are trained in GB, Ireland and France. Australia just doesn’t come close in that department.
A quick glance at the current International Classifications, which gives a list of all the top rated racehorses worldwide, tells us all we need to know.
Apart from sprinters, Black Caviar (2nd), Sepoy (jt 17th) and Hay List ( jt 23rd ), the top rated Australian trained middle distance horse is Atlantic Jewel ( now with Coolmore ), listed at joint 38.
In fact, of all the officially top-rated racehorses in the world in the past 8 years, none have been Australian trained. Incidentally, three have been American trained horses, before you start on about European bias.
So yes, Australia produces the best sprinters. We, however, produce ( without question ) the best milers and middle distance horses.
There is no doubt Euro stamina is superior to what is in Australia. We throw up the occasional real good middle distance horse like So You Think, Northerly, or Might and Power, but for the most part our middle distance horses are usually at a level similar to say a Starcraft or Elvstroem. When we get a world class stayer like Makybe Diva (who I’d rate superior to Americain based on what I’ve seen here) we tend to go overboard with the praise…….whereas despite what you hear us saying about Black Caviar I think generally speaking the opposite is probably true for our sprinters.
You guys probably don’t rate a horse like Rain Affair (have you even heard of him?) but I’d go so far as to say he could very well be as good as any sprinter you have in Europe.
I’ve got no problem admitting Euro stamina is the best. As for milers I think our best milers over the last 10 years would be more than competitive against anything from around the world over the same period. Lohnro was a superstar miler but no doubt you’d dismiss him as not being fit to lace Frankel’s boots…
As for quality of the race, I find it absurdly arrogant that you guys assume your mile/middle distance/and staying races are all better quality than Aussie racing, but you also think your sprint racing is comparable too! If you merged the lightning field with the kings stand and could somehow eliminate travel issues I’m confident our last placegetter would beat home yours by many many lengths.
You know what i find arrogant? Coming onto a British based horse racing forum with the sole intent on spreading the message of how great Australian horse racing is and we overrate European horse racing.
17star I’m sure most people on here would welcome some level of input from us Aussies in a thread that is discussing an Australian galloper!
I’ve met David Hayes several times from his days in HK and respect him as a trainer but based on that quote he’s clueless re: Frankel. If he says that he hasn’t heard of the horses Frankel is beating then then his opinion is worth nothing.
Frankel made a mess out of Canford Cliffs (possibly not at his best admittedly) and Excelebration. Those two would be superstar milers in any other year. Both of those are better than Goldikova who’s respected around the world (CC through Ascot, Excelebration through collateral form). Drop that name and David Hayes will understand.
AIC, there’s no doubt that the best European middle-distance/staying horses are stronger. Americain, Dunaden and Red Cadeaux have strong opposition in Europe but stand out in Australasia. Yes, Americain always races well in Australia (and is inconsistent in Europe) but he’s run to form a few times in Europe as well; we know that he isn’t imperious there like he is down under. So You Think was invincible in Australia, Bart Cummings called him the best horse he’s ever trained, etc. I believe Aidan hasn’t done a good job with him & that he’s a better horse than his European record suggests but the difference in level of competition is clear.
Hayes wasn’t bagging Frankel. He agreed Frankel was a sensational galloper. It was a racing review show on TVN last Sunday and the context of the discussion was around the quality of who each horse had been beating, that some UK-based scribes had mentioned they hadn’t heard of a lot of BC’s opposition and Hayes was just saying he’d seen Frankel and hadn’t heard of some of his opposition either. My impression is he was just saying that it meant nothing and in saying you hadn’t heard of the oppoisition it detracted nothing from the quality of each galloper.
We don’t have direct formlines for milers like we do for sprinters + stayers, but we have some form from Hong Kong and Japan which seem to give the Europeans the edge. Many horses clearly aren’t themselves during those raids so let’s focus on those who ran to form.
G2 & G3 Europeans like Sahpresa, Cityscape, Dubawi Gold, Spirito Del Vento, and Creachadoir have all gone close and shown themselves to be top class quality relative to Asian milers, capable of beating all but Asian superstars like Good Ba Ba.
Australian milers don’t travel much and many who do don’t run to form. One recent exception is Dao Dao, narrow 3rd in 2009 on a softish Sha Tin track. The principal chances didn’t fire in the wet that day, and its considered one of the weakest HK international miles ever. If Dao Dao ran to form as connections suggested, and even assuming the race was top class (which is VERY generous), that would place Dao Dao at the level of Cityscape, Sahpresa, etc. suggesting that best Europeans are superior.
To further support Dao Dao’s position, he was trained in HK prior to his move down under. While he was still rising through the ranks when he moved he wasn’t expected to be a star. In general I think Asian (neutral) form-readers would say the best European milers are generally better especially during this boom time of Frankel and Excelebration.
Dao dao was a very nice horse I’d love to have owned him but where has anyone suggested he was an elite class Aussie miler?
AIC that is not true steroids are used legally in pre training in the usa and oz and are totally banned in uk under the circumstances it would not be a fair fight
Can you outline exactly what you mean by this?
Horses here must be presented on race day drug free I assume you aren’t disputing that. That means any traces of banned substances (obviously includes steroids) if there are any traces found (extremely rare) the horse is stood down and then the enquiry starts.
If you are referring to treatment creams or medications for minor ailments I guess they may be in use behind closed doors but I’d be staggered if that wasn’t the case in England too. If you are insinuating our horses are on courses of steroids as part of their upbringing then you are wrong that sort of thing is not allowed here any more than it is in the UK.
And re a match race, I consider it just as unfair an advantage to Frankel for any suggested match race to be over 1600m up a hill truly run as it would be to BC were we to suggest it over 1000m flat course and let the pace dictate itself. I think somewhere in between would be a good test, that being 1400, flat course, no pacemakers, just let the horses show us what they can do under random circumstances with neither in their absolute comfort zone. Wouldn’t that be the best test? Or would it be too much to ask Team Frankel to have him go against her without all the balls being in his court.
I’d LOVE to see that race. Would give me just as much joy as when SYT raced Workforce in the Eclipse. Australia’s best vs England’s best and the Aussie delivers the knock out blow!
The sprint race I look forward to most is the July Cup (6f) as it attracts the best sprinters in Europe ( and from OZ ) and other good horses dropping back in trip.
I don’t think you have ever got our best sprinters racing at the top of their game to the July Cup.
For the few that have tried, they have been up such a long time and with travel issues etc I’ve always thought they were almost at the end of their tether by the time Royal Ascot came along let alone Newmarket where they have looked thoroughly jaded.
As for quality of the race, I find it absurdly arrogant that you guys assume your mile/middle distance/and staying races are all better quality than Aussie racing, but you also think your sprint racing is comparable too! If you merged the lightning field with the kings stand and could somehow eliminate travel issues I’m confident our last placegetter would beat home yours by many many lengths.
We’ve had some very nice 3yo’s win our equivalent 1600m guineas too you know. Weekend Hussler, Whobegotyou, Lohnro, Encounter, Show a Heart, Redoutes Choice, Gods Own, Our Maizcay and Mahogony were all rated as good or probably better than Starspangledbanner who is the only caulfield guineas winner you’ve seen over in UK.
If SSB can go and race impressively in UK then what do you think all of the above would’ve done?????
As for that post above re steroids is it not enough that horses must be presented at the races free of any banned substances? Steroids are not allowed in Australian racing any more than they are in the UK. Steroids play about the same role in a horse’s conditioning in Australia as they do in England.
Not sure you guys get what sort of a sprinting machine she is.
Yes, you’re right – we are by and large quite a naive lot on here and our knowledge and perception of horse racing is tenuous at best. So this Black Caviar horse is really fast you say and somewhat of a champion.
Thanks for that – nice to know.
A little learning is a very dangerous thing indeed.
Ha ha!
Hey can I ask you a question please?
Is Royal Ascot the absolute pinnacle of world sprint racing? Kings stand a better or worse class race than the Lightning? July Cup head and shoulders above the Newmarket?
Why don’t your sprinters travel down for the good prizemoney on offer in our plethora of top level sprint races?
400-200 in 10.64 secs
And had something up the sleeve…
And Frankel’s last furlong (220 yds) in the Sussex Stakes was 10.7 secs. Had something up his sleeve too
Well then, there you go, you’ve got something over there to compare BC’s acceleration to!
Black Caviar certainly appears to be a fine animal, but Frankel is something amazing. Given a true run race, and both having equal luck in running then I only see a Frankel victory over 8 furlongs or 10 furlongs.
Over a shorther distance would be slighlty more interesting.Let me put it to you another way….over a shorter distance BC would pick Frankel up and carry him. I’m sure you think very highly of Frankel and the thought of him getting beat at any distance seems hard to imagine, but let me tell you Frankel is not racing Black Caviar over 1000-1200. If he does, he’s getting crushed, it’s that simple. And like someone else said there’s a lot of money to be made by Frankel staying unbeaten.
BC as a sprinter is not just a fine animal she is the best sprinter you have ever seen. If you guys thought Starspangledbanner was good …..holy crap ……. he was in the top bunch of sprinters here but not a stand out or anything. BC is an absolute stand out! She’d beat him by 5 lengths on the bridle give her a kick and it’s out to 8! A fine animal you say? Ha ha she’s certainly that alright!!!
Not sure you guys get what sort of a sprinting machine she is. She is right up there with the best Australia has ever had and she’s got claim to being the best. If that’s not comparable to Frankel then by cripes Frankel must be the reincarnation of pegasus or something.
David Hayes (used to train in hong kong) was asked on tv on the weekend to compare BC and Frankel. He said he’s watched all of Frankels runs and Frankel does not destroy fields the way BC does. And re questioning who they are beating, he said he hasn’t heard of most of the horses Frankel is beating either!
However having said that I can tell you if So You Think and BC raced here over 10f I’d be on the colt no doubt. I don’t share the confidence about her running a middle distance right out. I think she could win a race over 2000 but not beat the best over 2000 if you know what I mean.
I think Frankel is a very good horse don’t get me wrong. But is he the best middle distance galloper of all time? Plenty of people are still questioning if he can stay that distance so I think that answers that question. BC though, there is minimal doubt that she is one of the greatest sprinters we’ve ever seen. I guess make of all that what you will but there is an opinion from the other side of the world…..for what it’s worth!
Incredible sprinter who beat a poor bunch over a longer trip. Taking Frankel on at a mile would stretch her stamina reserves to the limit. Frankel for me, everyday of the week.
Bel Esprit’s limit was about 1400-1600 at a stretch so I’m not as bullish about her stamina as jolly is. But I’ll agree with him that Southern Speed is no slouch, and on his day over 1400 Playing God is a pretty decent galloper too. The others are more like listed level horses.
No it was not a supreme test of stamina, but who gives a stuff? Why does everything need to be run uphill at a clip in order for it to be a valid test? That is such a eurotoss thing to say. I could just as easily say the best English stayers have been proven just as often as they have not to be slow plodders at flemington compared to their Aussie staying counterparts. It does not make it a more valid test to run a race uphill, it just makes it a different type of test. Septimus and Yeats may have had far bigger reserves of stamina but they didn’t have the acceleration or speed to cope with Aussie distance racing, no harm done they were great at what they were great at, right?
My personal opinion is she’d win over 1600 here which means she’d get up the hill at newmarket. So if she’s near her best she’ll win the GJ and JC.
Rain Alert is a pretty decent horse over here too you know. If she didn’t come he’d be a good chance to smash ascot to bits too!
