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What makes you think Black Caviar is hanging around for any other races in England past the Golden Jubilee?
My impression was she is racing there once, then coming home to be prepared for our spring carnival and then Hong Kong.
Has somebody heard something different over there?
I know why Black Caviar is coming to Ascot .To face new challengers.But why is Frankel coming to Ascot? To entertain the Queen? To beat the same horses for the fifth time? To gain more prestige? Please enlighten me.
Actually I think the Cav is coming to Ascot because the owners like the idea of getting all toffed up and having a bit of a shindig in England.
For me the problem lies in how you lot rate excellebration. Where is the proof that he’s the 3rd best horse in the world? Don’t give me this claptrap about needing depth of good horses to earn a high rating. That has nothing to do with it when you are overrating those that you are calling the good horses. Frankel’s outstanding but what is he really beating? Relying on timeform to judge uk horses is a joke.
Actually the highest rated horse of all time by Timeform was French and they would quickly tell you if they had been rating American horses at the time Secretariat would be the number 1.
If there is any prejudice towards UK horses it’s taking it’s time to show.
They could have easily made a case and given Frankel a 145 on Saturday but they didn’t. They dropped him as I said earlier.
Secretariat I believe was 144 HGM.
I’ve already explained on another thread to AIC about Sea Bird being French (along with Allez France (equal best mare). Plus Ribot being Italian etc etc… And the Timeform ratings given to Australian horses being produced by Australians (not Brits)… Black Caviar being rated the equal best mare… Best staying performance last year being rated as Americain (now trained in Australia) in finishing 4th in the Melbourne Cup…
But it makes no difference. AIC wants to believe Timeform are prejudiced, because he knows deep down AIC is prejudiced. Therefore he believes everyone else to be equally so. Judging others by his own standards.
Mate the bloke who runs racing and sports is not always right – he rated Sunline a better horse than Northerly despite Northerly kicking Sunline’s arse 3 from 3.
As for the French and Italian horse’s ratings…..well I guess I can acknowledge that there was time when the ratings process over there had a little more…..well, shall we say…..integrity?
For me the problem lies in how you lot rate excellebration.
Or how the aussies rate Hay List?
I think Aussies have a slightly better frame of reference with Hay List, especially now Ortensia went and broke the track record in Dubai.
Winning on a bog track in France is a good effort but why should it elevate you to 3rd best horse in the world?
Frankel ran his last split in the Q II in something like 12.94 – beejeebus that is slow – I know we’re talking different course types but we’re also talking about a horse you guys are suggesting is the best of all time.
For me the problem lies in how you lot rate excellebration. Where is the proof that he’s the 3rd best horse in the world? Don’t give me this claptrap about needing depth of good horses to earn a high rating. That has nothing to do with it when you are overrating those that you are calling the good horses. Frankel’s outstanding but what is he really beating? Relying on timeform to judge uk horses is a joke.
He’s not just a miler, he’s the second best miler in the World, with a possibility of more improvement to come this season.
You guys are as bad as the yanks!
Tell me how much you know about the Japanese, gingerminger.
Ha ha lots of fun with the argie bargie.
If I was looking to have a bet at this stage it’d be on Ortensia in the Kings Stand. I think her finishing burst can take Foxwedge and probably the rest of them too. Betfair shows $9 I think that is good value. Everything ive heard moody say here indicates Black Caviar won’t start in the kings stand, and Ortensia is already there and set for this race. So when BC gets withdrawn there will be a sudden shift in the market and the $9 will look very nice indeed. I’d say ability wise she’s on par with miss andretti but that’s just my opinion.
"I presume you convicts will be falling over each other backing Black Caviar when she runs in the UK, she’s currently available at 8/13 and looking at RP records she tends to start at 1/20 (!) at home?"
I appreciate things have moved on since my above comment – but i am very interested in recieving an Australian perspective / reply regarding the pricing.
1.55 and still a 40 hr plane ride away? Personally I don’t take those sorts of odds on any horse. But if you knew she was 100% going down to the barrier I’d say it’s worth a small bet and frame the ticket to show your kids the day you backed a legend.
Fair dinkum boys. AIC is right. Aussie horses are far superior to ours in every way. Look at So You Think’s recent form figures if you don’t believe me. One of the all time great’s over there struggling to make the frame elsewhere in the world. Frankel wouldnt win a handicap in Oz. Luckily Sir Hen couldnt give a 4X!
Strewth cobber fair suck of the sav. Listen up pom, it’s like this, Aussie sprinters are superior as a general rule, your stayers are superior as a general rule, and everything else in between isn’t as uneven as you’d like to think.
Got it now geeza?
Ginger my ‘confrontational’ comments were not aimed at you specifically mate. Don’t worry whatever I write here it’s always with a
on the other side of the screen.I find it bemusing that you use Timeform ratings to judge Aussie horses almost it seems as a direct and literal comparison to the UK ones. As whoever earlier said, handicappers ratings are just another person’s opinions too…..and I’ve never seen 12 horses crossing the line at the same time…..so the handicapper is ALWAYS wrong in a way isn’t he?
It’s a widely held belief in Australia that Timeform is heavily biased towards UK horses. Hawk Wing – now there’s a hair brain looney tunes rating for you!
Actually the main thing I have an issue with on here is when I see stuff like this:
"…but because he/she hasn’t got good horses to run against…"
It’s the underlying assumption from you that UK racing is superior to Aussie racing across all levels bar the sprinters. I’d guess before Choisir you’d have assumed your sprinters superior too?
If I wrote Frankel couldn’t possible be ranked so high because he hasn’t got good horses to run against there, you’d laugh your tits off.
I don’t think Elvstroem was within 6 lengths of his best Aussie form when in UK.
Couldn’t be bothered checking – but who said Starcraft improved a little with Cumani???? What makes you think he did that? Just because he won one of your premier mile races over there?
More Joyous could have come to Royal Ascot to compete in the Queen Anne. Her trainer, Gai Waterhouse, was up for it but her owner, John Singleton, declined. The mare is good but definitely not in Excelebration’s class, let alone Frankel’s.
How do you know that?
I’m not saying she’s better than Frankel, or any other horse, only saying some of you people (not saying all but its probably not far off that) are pretty clueless about racing in Australia.
Your comments would seem to indicate you’re in that ignorant majority who has no idea.
By the way the list of UK’s supposed best quality stayers in the world who have travelled and got smashed in the melb cup is LONG.
Not saying our stayers are better, far from it, but this hubris-like assumption that the ranks run far deeper in the UK for every category other than sprinters is not on the mark either in my opinion.
I agree with you – Aussie racing is a largely unknown quantity to me apart from the very largest names, so i cannot really comment with any certainty.
You lot must surely be very proud about the excitement this Mare is stirring over here in anticapation of Royal Ascot. I’m very eager to see her in action on these shores, and also very eager to see Frankel this weekend. If they could remain unbeaten this season and meet back-end at 7f in a match, this would be some event. This is what its all about surely, not these daft nationalistic virtual p***ing contests.
Here in Australia we have 4 dedicated horseracing channels and you can basically bet on anything that has 4 legs and moves! And not talking betfair…..there are betting terminals in most Aussie pubs that cater for racing all over the world. You can sit in some Aussie pubs at 10 o’clock at night and legally bet on South Africa, Hong Kong, UK, and USA racing at the same time, and watch them run live on the 50 inch plasma above the bar!
As a result of having much easier access coverage of international racing I think we’ve generally got at the very least as good or better grip/idea on your good horses as you guys do on ours.
And that’s probably not saying much because I’d hardly rate myself an expert on UK racing. But I watch UK racing regularly and know enough to know Aussie racing is a much better product but more importantly quality-wise isn’t far off anything anywhere in the world. The influx of shuttle stallions means we’ve got many of your great bloodlines here but also our best colonial bloodlines which you don’t have access to over there.
How many Redoute’s Choice, Lonhro, or Encosta De Lago 3yo’s have you seen racing in the UK? I’d assume next to none.
Black Caviar is a great horse, but I’m actually quite nervous about her going over there with all the lofty expectations. Fingers crossed everything goes well. If you go watch her walk around the mounting yard you’ll be amazed how powerful she is.
More Joyous could have come to Royal Ascot to compete in the Queen Anne. Her trainer, Gai Waterhouse, was up for it but her owner, John Singleton, declined. The mare is good but definitely not in Excelebration’s class, let alone Frankel’s.
How do you know that?
I’m not saying she’s better than Frankel, or any other horse, only saying some of you people (not saying all but its probably not far off that) are pretty clueless about racing in Australia.
Your comments would seem to indicate you’re in that ignorant majority who has no idea.
By the way the list of UK’s supposed best quality stayers in the world who have travelled and got smashed in the melb cup is LONG.
Not saying our stayers are better, far from it, but this hubris-like assumption that the ranks run far deeper in the UK for every category other than sprinters is not on the mark either in my opinion.
Yes joni, an exceptional lot.
Ginger, do you honestly think that an Australian 3yo winning 9 of 9, only 2 outside of his age group, would ever, ever be given a rating of 143? Personally I can’t see it.
Yes, it is possible, although highly unlikely Marbine……….There might be a horse running in Australian mile and middle distance races that is capable of showing a 143 or 136, but because he/she hasn’t got good horses to run against is unable to show he/she is a 143 or 136, so is unable to be rated as such. Australian sprinters as a bunch are better than any other distance group in your country. So it was always likely Australian sprinters were going to achieve the highest ratings.
Before Choisir went over and spanked your lot Aussie sprinters were largely unknown in the UK, and definitely not rated as high as they are now that you’ve seen them run. What price did he start in the kings stand again? Wasn’t it 20-1 or something completely ridiculous? But Star Witness, a horse not fit to lace Choisir’s boot straps, is worthy of a 5-1 or so quote?
You’ve seen a couple other Aussies go over who weren’t just sprinters – Starcraft, Haradasun, & Elvstroem – Aussies wouldn’t rate any of those amongst our best milers or middle distance horses either…..but they all managed to be competitive over there didn’t they?
So You Think has won multiple group races in the UK.
Has the penny not dropped that maybe we might have some fairly decent gallopers tucked away who are milers or middle distance horses, and just because you are ignorant and know nothing about them, it might not mean that they aren’t world class horses too?
Seems crazy that anyone attempting to creditably discuss the topic of world class horses has never heard of the Lightning Stakes at Flemington.
The horse you’ve never heard of who ran last in that race could possibly be a good group level sprinter in the UK!
SYT was always better than your derby & arc winner Workforce. Do you think he’s the only decent mile/middle distance type horse we’ve had? More Joyous could almost be as good as Frankel but you’d all scoff and giggle because you’ve never heard of her!
Even going to Ascot I’m not sure how much she proves.
I agree re the decision to go to the UK though, nothing to gain bar showing the English how good she is first hand. I think that it’s more about the owners than the horse which is a shame. She shopuld have gone to Dubai, Japan & Hong Kong.
I too agree about going to Ascot, what did it do for Miss Andretti? We get Choisir, Exceed and Excel, Star Witness, they had stud careers to establish, otherwise Takeover Target, Scenic Blast, Black Caviar, what’s the point? It’s not $$ so must be the fun of it for the owners.
When you think about it she’s got everything to lose at Ascot – such a long journey – completely different course type – and nothing much to gain financially to make it worth the punt.
I think the French horse is currently the best middle distance horse in the world. And in my mind not much doubt Black Caviar is still the best sprinter.
I know the Frankel-groupies wouldn’t hear of it but I think Frankel still has a tiny bit to prove to get the milers nod. You can’t use the guineas that was a 3yo restricted race, and there are obvious question marks over a couple of his good wins last season (pace, opposition being not at their best or injured). When the pace was on in the St James Palace he fell in but I’m not denouncing that effort it was still a great win although if excellerbration didn’t want to duck in 45 times and decided to run straight who knows..
How can you say who is the best out of those 3 anyway?
I personally think milers make the best sires – does that count?
I agree it’s great to have such great animals running around and not sure if all of you poms truly appreciate how lucky you are to have a meeting like Ascot where many trainers make the effort to travel over their best horses.
If I were there I’d be booking my penthouse and going to the races every day that week!
on the other side of the screen.