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"I presume you convicts will be falling over each other backing Black Caviar when she runs in the UK, she’s currently available at 8/13 and looking at RP records she tends to start at 1/20 (!) at home?"
I appreciate things have moved on since my above comment – but i am very interested in recieving an Australian perspective / reply regarding the pricing.
1.55 and still a 40 hr plane ride away? Personally I don’t take those sorts of odds on any horse. But if you knew she was 100% going down to the barrier I’d say it’s worth a small bet and frame the ticket to show your kids the day you backed a legend.
"I presume you convicts will be falling over each other backing Black Caviar when she runs in the UK, she’s currently available at 8/13 and looking at RP records she tends to start at 1/20 (!) at home?"
I appreciate things have moved on since my above comment – but i am very interested in recieving an Australian perspective / reply regarding the pricing.
1.55 and still a 40 hr plane ride away? Personally I don’t take those sorts of odds on any horse. But if you knew she was 100% going down to the barrier I’d say it’s worth a small bet and frame the ticket to show your kids the day you backed a legend.
But isn’t she normally around 1.05 over there? Excuse my ignorance, but can’t you bet at UK prices online? Exchanges etc?
Ginger my ‘confrontational’ comments were not aimed at you specifically mate. Don’t worry whatever I write here it’s always with a
on the other side of the screen.I find it bemusing that you use Timeform ratings to judge Aussie horses almost it seems as a direct and literal comparison to the UK ones. As whoever earlier said, handicappers ratings are just another person’s opinions too…..and I’ve never seen 12 horses crossing the line at the same time…..so the handicapper is ALWAYS wrong in a way isn’t he?
It’s a widely held belief in Australia that Timeform is heavily biased towards UK horses. Hawk Wing – now there’s a hair brain looney tunes rating for you!
It may be a "widely held belief in Australia AIC, but it sounds as if Australians are judging Timeform by their own standards.
Timeform believe Black Caviar is the EQUAL BEST sprinter there’s been (taking in to account her sex allowance) since the 1940’s. And as the ratings were very new at that time, those old ratings may be questionable. She is also the EQUAL BEST mare there’s EVER been at ANY distance.
Does that sound as though Timeform are
"heavily biased towards UK horses"?
You don’t seem to be reading my posts. I’ve already mentioned how many of the very best rated horses are not UK based.
I expect Black Caviar to beat our current crop of sprinters by at least 3 lengths, probably more. Hope if she happens to run below form and gets beaten people do not start saying she isn’t that good. Likewise Frankel. Horses are not machines (although both give a good impression of one). They can run badly now and again.
Timeform’s
"Best Stayer"
last year was Americain (note "Americain" not "American"), for a rating put up when
only fourth
in the Melbourne Cup. Does that sound as if Timeform are
"heavily biased"
?
So according to Timeform, Australia now has the best Sprinter in the World (by some way) and the best Stayer in the World; with both best ratings put up in Australia… Yet it is somehow still "heavily biased towards UK horses".
You Aussies are never satisfied. It won’t be right until Timeform rate the best horses at every distance category as Australian.
Have you ever thought it could just be that the Australian Press are heavly biased against anything that comes "out of the UK"?
Whinging Aussies!
Value Is EverythingIt may be of interest to those who are against Timeform on the basis of being a UK company – To know that their Australian ratings are produced by Gary Crispe of RacingAndSports. An Australian company.
http://www.racingandsports.com.au/timeform/
Mr Crispe:
http://www.racingandsports.com.au/racin … =DirectorsValue Is EverythingSYT one our ALL TIME GREATS? Don’t confuse the Coolore Hyperbole with the facts tsk tsk, and no, Frankel wouldn’t win a handicap over here. With a timeform rating of 142 he’d be asked to carry 2 jockeys!
I think Marbine, it was Bart who hyped up SYT and the Australian press, even more than Coolmore. Indeed some Australians were hyping him up on TRF last season.
Value Is EverythingI don’t think Elvstroem was within 6 lengths of his best Aussie form when in UK.
Couldn’t be bothered checking – but who said Starcraft improved a little with Cumani???? What makes you think he did that? Just because he won one of your premier mile races over there?
Christ, you’re so defensive when it comes to your Australian Racing AIC.
Yes, Elvstroem was better in Aus than in Europe, although I still would not class even his Australian form alongside Starcraft or Haradasun.
If we Brits are prepared to believe Manighar, Glass Harmonium, Drunken Sailor etc etc all improved
greatly
when in the hands of Australian trainers… Why are you
not
prepared to believe Starcraft improved a
little
with Luca Cumani?
The year before Starcraft raced in Europe he went over to New Zealand, losing his form there. (Not connections fault, they weren’t to know, these things happen). But had he not gone to New Zealand it’s quite possible Starcraft would have shown the same form in Oz as he did with Luca.
Value Is EverythingActually the main thing I have an issue with on here is when I see stuff like this:
"…but because he/she hasn’t got good horses to run against…"
It’s the underlying assumption from you that UK racing is superior to Aussie racing across all levels bar the sprinters. I’d guess before Choisir you’d have assumed your sprinters superior too?
If I wrote Frankel couldn’t possible be ranked so high because he hasn’t got good horses to run against there, you’d laugh your tits off.
Finally
My comment: "…but because he/she hasn’t got good horses to run against…" applies to racing throughout the World; in GB, USA or AUS.
Our last male "Triple Crown" winner Nijinsky travelled well in his races and won effortlessly. Yet never beat a horse of exceptional quality. Although something can be added for ease of victory, it is impossible to add enough to rate Nijinsky amongst the Frankels. However, had he been kept in training and run against the likes of Brigadier Gerrard and and Mill Reef… It is quite possible he would’ve proven himself as good as them.
Sometimes horses (particularly hold up horses) need rivals of similar ability to be able to show their true ability (rating).
So just because a middle-distance/mile "Great" (in terms of form ratings) has not shown itself in Australian racing… Doesn’t mean there hasn’t been one capable of "greatness" who just couldn’t show his/her true capabilities; entirely due to who his/her opponents were.
Value Is EverythingTime to put the colonies in their place.The big UJ versus the small uj.Bring on the horse trained by the natives.Let’s teach these sons of comvicts a lesson in animal management.
What that Australian article leaves out (if I were a conspiracy theorist I might say "conveniently leaves out") is that Janiak did not withdraw the horse, he refused and the stewards were forced to do so for him. And that Janiak claimed the steroid was accidentally injected in to a ligament rather than a muscle, resulting in the substance not being released so quickly. It was such a major breach of the rules that some experts (and I am not talking about Mark Johnston) were reportedly of the opinion that the steroid could stay there permanently.
How
careless
.
mistaking a ligament for a muscle.You say
"But it didn’t stay there permanently…."
Marbine.
Whether or not it did stay there permenently… What was the effect of having so much stuff in Takeover Target, enough for experts to question whether it would remain in his system?
My main point is Janiak did something which was at best both incompetent and an "accidental mistake". You can’t be human if not asking if Janiak had made similar "accidental" incompetent "mistakes" (note
"
s) in the past and future? Which no doubt is what Mark Johnston was getting at.
Don’t know if you saw/remember BBC racing covering Royal Ascot , when Clare Balding asked Janiak about the steroid issue. She was responding to a question I e-mailed to BBC Racing. Who knows, I might have had something to do with an Australian rule change.
Value Is EverythingThe Australians have a habit of trying to portray themselves as the under dogs. Recently i’ve heard some of their trainers says that British racing fans underestimate their sprinters, which is untrue. We know they have good sprinters, and they always get well backed. Perhaps the next time they claim this a presenter could ask them to back it up.
I heard today on CH4 that Black Caviar’s trainer said she is 2 seconds faster than Choisir. Enough said.
Her action looks very similar to Frankel’s straight and pure – I suspect they were both fitted with the same engine and drivetrain
I hope I can make it to Ascot.
Takeover Target NEVER had a positive swab after any race is the only point I am making. Janiak is a cab driver who got lucky.
Bart was whingeing that his old mate, Dato, was taking his best (current, and in his 80’s Bart ain’t gunna have another one) horse off him. As for the Aussies hyping him up on here, passionate/biased racing fans. So You Think was never as good as Northerly nor Might & Power, though he got a Timeform rating better – for the breeders, they rule the racing world. So You Think dominated here is a very, very weak period for middle distance horses, which continues today. Thus the reason that 2nd & 3rd tier horses from your neck of the woods such as Americain, Manighar, My Kingdom of Fyfe, Glass Harmonium, Lucas Cranach, etc, have been very competitave and in some cases dominant here.
The sprinting brigade, however, has gone from strength to strength, what with our idiotic breeding to a moronic $3million race for 2yos, ludicrous, impatience by owners & breeders. This is why the first 7 horses over the line in last years Melbourne Cup were European, we have NO stayers & very little at middle distance, some handy milers.
Don’t fall into any hypre re More Joyous, she’s a miler full stop. You will hear some Aussies say she could be anything but she isn’t, she’s a 3 length inferior horse to So You Think over 2000m so you can rate her according to that.
The only other horses we have here, aside from sprinters, that have the potential to compete on a world scale are Atlantic Jewel (but she is owned by Coolmore and now her TF rating is as high as Sunline’s – ludicrous how they rate a 7 length win in a G1 race for 3yo fillies as equivalent as a 7 length romp in a Cox Plate) and Mosheen (who will end up in Japan).
Europe has far, far more depth than Oz ar racing over a mile plus, it’s just a shame that most of your champs retire before they are TRULY tested….. That is what frustrates me with TF ratings of Euros, high rating to 3yo against other 3yos or with a weight advantage against older horses…
Sorry for the rant, but I enjoy this forum & the conversations..
Ha ha lots of fun with the argie bargie.
If I was looking to have a bet at this stage it’d be on Ortensia in the Kings Stand. I think her finishing burst can take Foxwedge and probably the rest of them too. Betfair shows $9 I think that is good value. Everything ive heard moody say here indicates Black Caviar won’t start in the kings stand, and Ortensia is already there and set for this race. So when BC gets withdrawn there will be a sudden shift in the market and the $9 will look very nice indeed. I’d say ability wise she’s on par with miss andretti but that’s just my opinion.
Ginger my ‘confrontational’ comments were not aimed at you specifically mate. Don’t worry whatever I write here it’s always with a
on the other side of the screen.I find it bemusing that you use Timeform ratings to judge Aussie horses almost it seems as a direct and literal comparison to the UK ones. As whoever earlier said, handicappers ratings are just another person’s opinions too…..and I’ve never seen 12 horses crossing the line at the same time…..so the handicapper is ALWAYS wrong in a way isn’t he?
It’s a widely held belief in Australia that Timeform is heavily biased towards UK horses. Hawk Wing – now there’s a hair brain looney tunes rating for you!
It may be a "widely held belief in Australia AIC, but it sounds as if Australians are judging Timeform by their own standards.
Timeform believe Black Caviar is the EQUAL BEST sprinter there’s been (taking in to account her sex allowance) since the 1940’s. And as the ratings were very new at that time, those old ratings may be questionable. She is also the EQUAL BEST mare there’s EVER been at ANY distance.
Does that sound as though Timeform are
"heavily biased towards UK horses"?
You don’t seem to be reading my posts. I’ve already mentioned how many of the very best rated horses are not UK based.
I expect Black Caviar to beat our current crop of sprinters by at least 3 lengths, probably more. Hope if she happens to run below form and gets beaten people do not start saying she isn’t that good. Likewise Frankel. Horses are not machines (although both give a good impression of one). They can run badly now and again.
Timeform’s
"Best Stayer"
last year was Americain (note "Americain" not "American"), for a rating put up when
only fourth
in the Melbourne Cup. Does that sound as if Timeform are
"heavily biased"
?
So according to Timeform, Australia now has the best Sprinter in the World (by some way) and the best Stayer in the World; with both best ratings put up in Australia… Yet it is somehow still "heavily biased towards UK horses".
You Aussies are never satisfied. It won’t be right until Timeform rate the best horses at every distance category as Australian.
Have you ever thought it could just be that the Australian Press are heavly biased against anything that comes "out of the UK"?
Whinging Aussies!
Grow up! So You Think beats Workforce and you say Workforce was down on form! You are a pathetic one eyed person! Twist things to suit yourself are you jealous you didnt get on the boat and get some ‘convict’ sunshine
Fair dinkum boys. AIC is right. Aussie horses are far superior to ours in every way. Look at So You Think’s recent form figures if you don’t believe me. One of the all time great’s over there struggling to make the frame elsewhere in the world. Frankel wouldnt win a handicap in Oz. Luckily Sir Hen couldnt give a 4X!
You are full of bullsh*t how many times has So You Think failed to make the frame? You can call someone a knob and get away with it,if it was an Aussie your rather meek main man ‘cormack’ would threaten them with expulsion
but your English so thats ok,have a free shot at the aussie horses Fair dinkum boys. AIC is right. Aussie horses are far superior to ours in every way. Look at So You Think’s recent form figures if you don’t believe me. One of the all time great’s over there struggling to make the frame elsewhere in the world. Frankel wouldnt win a handicap in Oz. Luckily Sir Hen couldnt give a 4X!
You are full of bullsh*t how many times has So You Think failed to make the frame? You can call someone a knob and get away with it,if it was an Aussie your rather meek main man ‘cormack’ would threaten them with expulsion
but your English so thats ok,have a free shot at the aussie horses Whilst i didnt agree with the creampuff statement and the gist of it,we would have been threatened with expulsion from the site.Your So You Think comments are just as immature as the Frankel comments you reacted to!
Ginger my ‘confrontational’ comments were not aimed at you specifically mate. Don’t worry whatever I write here it’s always with a
on the other side of the screen.I find it bemusing that you use Timeform ratings to judge Aussie horses almost it seems as a direct and literal comparison to the UK ones. As whoever earlier said, handicappers ratings are just another person’s opinions too…..and I’ve never seen 12 horses crossing the line at the same time…..so the handicapper is ALWAYS wrong in a way isn’t he?
It’s a widely held belief in Australia that Timeform is heavily biased towards UK horses. Hawk Wing – now there’s a hair brain looney tunes rating for you!
It may be a "widely held belief in Australia AIC, but it sounds as if Australians are judging Timeform by their own standards.
Timeform believe Black Caviar is the EQUAL BEST sprinter there’s been (taking in to account her sex allowance) since the 1940’s. And as the ratings were very new at that time, those old ratings may be questionable. She is also the EQUAL BEST mare there’s EVER been at ANY distance.
Does that sound as though Timeform are
"heavily biased towards UK horses"?
You don’t seem to be reading my posts. I’ve already mentioned how many of the very best rated horses are not UK based.
I expect Black Caviar to beat our current crop of sprinters by at least 3 lengths, probably more. Hope if she happens to run below form and gets beaten people do not start saying she isn’t that good. Likewise Frankel. Horses are not machines (although both give a good impression of one). They can run badly now and again.
Timeform’s
"Best Stayer"
last year was Americain (note "Americain" not "American"), for a rating put up when
only fourth
in the Melbourne Cup. Does that sound as if Timeform are
"heavily biased"
?
So according to Timeform, Australia now has the best Sprinter in the World (by some way) and the best Stayer in the World; with both best ratings put up in Australia… Yet it is somehow still "heavily biased towards UK horses".
You Aussies are never satisfied. It won’t be right until Timeform rate the best horses at every distance category as Australian.
Have you ever thought it could just be that the Australian Press are heavly biased against anything that comes "out of the UK"?
Whinging Aussies!
Grow up! So You Think beats Workforce and you say Workforce was down on form! You are a pathetic one eyed person! Twist things to suit yourself are you jealous you didnt get on the boat and get some ‘convict’ sunshine
And you claim you may have held a hand in getting the drug testing reformed in Australia,is your own little world so bad you could honestly think that?
on the other side of the screen.
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