- This topic has 155 replies, 32 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
It may be a "widely held belief in Australia AIC, but it sounds as if Australians are judging Timeform by their own standards.
Timeform believe Black Caviar is the EQUAL BEST sprinter there’s been (taking in to account her sex allowance) since the 1940’s. And as the ratings were very new at that time, those old ratings may be questionable. She is also the EQUAL BEST mare there’s EVER been at ANY distance.
Does that sound as though Timeform are
"heavily biased towards UK horses"?
You don’t seem to be reading my posts. I’ve already mentioned how many of the very best rated horses are not UK based.
I expect Black Caviar to beat our current crop of sprinters by at least 3 lengths, probably more. Hope if she happens to run below form and gets beaten people do not start saying she isn’t that good. Likewise Frankel. Horses are not machines (although both give a good impression of one). They can run badly now and again.
Timeform’s
"Best Stayer"
last year was Americain (note "Americain" not "American"), for a rating put up when
only fourth
in the Melbourne Cup. Does that sound as if Timeform are
"heavily biased"
?
So according to Timeform, Australia now has the best Sprinter in the World (by some way) and the best Stayer in the World; with both best ratings put up in Australia… Yet it is somehow still "heavily biased towards UK horses".
You Aussies are never satisfied. It won’t be right until Timeform rate the best horses at every distance category as Australian.
Have you ever thought it could just be that the Australian Press are heavly biased against anything that comes "out of the UK"?
Whinging Aussies!
Grow up! So You Think beats Workforce and you say Workforce was down on form! You are a pathetic one eyed person! Twist things to suit yourself are you jealous you didnt get on the boat and get some ‘convict’ sunshine
If you want to throw insults I won’t respond in future. Please stick to a discussion. "One eyed person". Not very nice, considering it is quite possible I’ll end up with one or no eyes due to my glaucoma Jollyp! Why is it "pathetic"?
Look at the form Jollyp. Workforce won the Derby and Arc at 1m4f, he got beat in two races at 1m2f in both Dante and Eclipse. In fact it was still his best performance last year with his trainer having a very poor year. Just saying I believe Workforce is a little bit better at 1m4f than 1m2f; because he hasn’t got the speed. I believe Workforce and So You Think are equals. So you think I am wrong, fair enough that’s up to you. Wouldn’t call anyone "paathetic" for having the other point of view. So why the abuse?
If you believe Workforce is the same at any trip, do you believe all horses perform the same at any trip? In Australia, Americain has run three times this season at 1m2f and got beaten. Do you think he’s shown the same form at 1m2f as he has at 2 miles Jollyp?
Value Is EverythingDon’t know if you saw/remember BBC racing covering Royal Ascot , when Clare Balding asked Janiak about the steroid issue. She was responding to a question I e-mailed to BBC Racing.
Who knows, I might have had something to do with an Australian rule change.
To respond to your gripe Jollyp:
And you claim you may have held a hand in getting the drug testing reformed in Australia,is your own little world so bad you could honestly think that?
Of course I don’t think that.
Hence the wink
and laughter. It was me who e-mailed the question to Clare. But I was joking about having something to do with any Australian rule change.
Can’t believe you took me seriously.
Lighten up mate.
Value Is EverythingIt’s interesting how we think differently, different instincts. I guess we’re all products of our environments. I mean – ginger – correct me if I’m wrong – your thoughts re Workforce’s form from 3yo to 4yo are that he performs better at 2400m than he does at 2000m or he didn’t train on or the stable was in bad form. My thoughts differ. In a normal year Workforce would’ve been packed off to stud a champion. I don’t think he could handle the rise in class & weight. Other horses also had a chance to catch up maturity wise. Where I’m from thats nothing unusual, happens all the time as our 3yo "champs" almost always race on at 4.
From just running against his age and the combination of having to carry weight as an older horse when stepping up in class.
The Arc favours 3yo because of the WFA scale. As a 4yo, older horses have an advantage until the Eclipse, thereafter the WFA scale suits the classic generation. Workforce was a very good horse when he won the Derby, although he beat a truly appalling field. He then won the worst Arc I can recall. The 3yo middle distance colts of 2010 were desperately ordinary.
The Arc favours 3yo because of the WFA scale. As a 4yo, older horses have an advantage until the Eclipse, thereafter the WFA scale suits the classic generation. Workforce was a very good horse when he won the Derby, although he beat a truly appalling field. He then won the worst Arc I can recall. The 3yo middle distance colts of 2010 were desperately ordinary.
All in your opinion of course, although i would agree that the WFA is too great later in the season. Regardless, i was making the point Workforce did not step up in class from 3yo to 4yo, nothing else.
Historically it has been shown that the WFA evens out the advantage of older horses.Fifty per cent of the races are won by older horses 50% are won by the three year olds.So I have been told by those who seek credit for the WFA scale.
for me SEA THE STARS in flat because win all distance and for jump,RED RUM te king of grand national, the more difficult race.
Sea the Stars is IMO one of the most over rated horses, by punters, of all time
His trainer saw an opportunity to add 3 races to his portfolio in between the Derby and the Arc and opted out of the King George for easy pickings.
Really when you look back he beat very little in his career.
Fame and Glory who he beat in the Irish Champion could hardly be called a 10f horse or a 12 furlong horse if the truth be known.
Rip Van Winkle was without doubt a miler in truth as was Mastercraftsman.
The real test for him came in the Arc and for me and thousands of others it was his best ever performance. He was for the first time meeting fit horses who were running at their correct trip.
However the race he was flat out to win somewhat exposed his true ability and instead of his rating going up Timeform put him down.
The fact is while he was flat out to beat Youmzain the 132 rated Zarkava had beaten the same horse the previous year doing handstands and the couldn’t possibly have given him a higher rating when really just looking at the races Zarkava was probably the better horse.
Sea the Stars was the best of his yaer no doubt about it but when it comes to past and present he wouldn’t have won a race IMO.
Frankel would have laughed at him at a mile. Horses like Mill Reef and Sea Bid II would have shot past him like a tree.
These horses didn’t win races by 1 1/2 lengths they won by miles and without as much as coming out of 3rd gear…Sea the Stars no matter what crap people come up with saying he only did what he had to was never and never will be regarded as one of the world’s best IMO….he wouldn’t be in my top 20 of the all times greats worldwide.
Red Rum is the greatest national horse of all time but no one in their right mind would call him the best chaser in the world……..he’s rated about 15 stone behind Arkle and that’s on a good day.
The problem is the National is not regarded as a any sort of Championship race it’s a stand alone spectacle with no prestige attached to it and winners are seldom rated very highly.
This years winner would be rated something like a stone behind the novice Sprinter Sacre which puts it into perspective.
for me SEA THE STARS in flat because win all distance and for jump,RED RUM te king of grand national, the more difficult race.
Sea the Stars is IMO one of the most over rated horses, by punters, of all time
His trainer saw an opportunity to add 3 races to his portfolio in between the Derby and the Arc and opted out of the King George for easy pickings.
Really when you look back he beat very little in his career.
Some placement by John Oxx that must have been – taking in the 2000 Guineas, Derby, Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion & Arc beating "very little".
for me SEA THE STARS in flat because win all distance and for jump,RED RUM te king of grand national, the more difficult race.
Sea the Stars is IMO one of the most over rated horses, by punters, of all time
His trainer saw an opportunity to add 3 races to his portfolio in between the Derby and the Arc and opted out of the King George for easy pickings.
Really when you look back he beat very little in his career.
Some placement by John Oxx that must have been – taking in the 2000 Guineas, Derby, Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion & Arc beating "very little".
Yep, thats right he beat very little. Sea The Stars is without doubt (2 year-old Windy City excepted) the worst timeform 140 rated horse completely and utterly over-rated.
In the Guineas he beat Delegator regularly beaten in G2/3 races, In the Derby he beat Fame And Glory a fine Cup horse but presumably not considered by connections to be good enough to be competing at G1 middle distance races. In the Eclipse he beat RVW who may well have been better at a mile and was well and truly put in place by Canford Cliffs and efforts over 10F show him about the level of Twice Over, in the Arc he beat Youmzain and Cavalryman, neither have won in 21 subsequent starts.
Sea The Stars, remember, was usually ridden out to defeat these legends of the turf. Sea The Stars a good colt, clearly the best of his generation, a "Great"? In my opinion a resounding NO!
Yep, thats right he beat very little. Sea The Stars is without doubt (2 year-old Windy City excepted) the worst timeform 140 rated horse completely and utterly over-rated.
In the Guineas he beat Delegator regularly beaten in G2/3 races, In the Derby he beat Fame And Glory a fine Cup horse but presumably not considered by connections to be good enough to be competing at G1 middle distance races. In the Eclipse he beat RVW who may well have been better at a mile and was well and truly put in place by Canford Cliffs and efforts over 10F show him about the level of Twice Over, in the Arc he beat Youmzain and Cavalryman, neither have won in 21 subsequent starts.
Sea The Stars, remember, was usually ridden out to defeat these legends of the turf. Sea The Stars a good colt, clearly the best of his generation, a "Great"? In my opinion a resounding NO!
Does "ridden out" equate to "all out"? Not in my opinion. TYhe nearest he was to being extended was the Eclipse when he ended up going away again. Never bottomed.
"Peruvian Chief":18thggxm wrote:
Does "ridden out" equate to "all out"? Not in my opinion. TYhe nearest he was to being extended was the Eclipse when he ended up going away again. Never bottomed.
My point is that STS was invariably bustled along, given a few slaps, giving the impression that he didn’t have tons in reserve to beat rivals who have been well beaten on numerous occasions by horses we would certainly not put in the "great" bracket.
Frankel on the other hand destroys top class opposition. Now I know a mile was short of STS best trip, but lets take the Guineas he beat Delagator who is maybe on a par to Dubawi Gold in terms of ability, the latter having been runner up in two Guineas and won a Celebration Mile, he gets pulverised every time he runs against Frankel.
Let us consider his Eclipse win from RVW who was probably the best horse he beat. The racing post comments were "hard pressed, dug deep, fended of challenger last 150 yards". Hardly gives the impression there was a whole left to give does it?
Lets now consider what a true great does to his peers. Excelebration has won every race he’s competed in without Frankel since the Greenham last season. This includes a G3 by over 3L conceding 6lbs, the German Guineas by 7L, the Hungerford by 6L, a Prix du Moulin, also without Frankel he would also have won a QEII by 3L and yesterday’s Lockinge by 4L and without Frankel would be lauded as one of the best milers of the last decade.
Yet he was destroyed under hands and heels by 5L, that is the sign of great horse.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.