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"at least not at a mile" Exactly.A mile is not the preferred distance to judge a world class horse.Until he wins and beats the best beyond a mile he will be an (*) horse.Seems like his supporters refuse to recognise this limitation to Frankel.How can one rate him with the great Arc winners when he has never even run beyond a mile?How does he compare with the great Brigardier Gerard who raced over the classic distances.In one of the most eagerly anticipated races ever, Brigadier Gerard won in devastating fashion by three lengths from Mill Reef and My Swallow in the Guineas. Brigadier Gerard followed that victory with wins in the St. James’s Palace Stakes, the Sussex Stakes by five lengths, the Goodwood Mile by ten lengths, the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes by eight lengths, and the Champion Stakes. I look forward to Frankel doing as well this year! Or are they still afraid to run a Galileo beyond a mile?
* raced over a mile.
I don’t agree that a horse can’t be considered an outstanding champion unless he/she has won Group 1s at 10f to 12f, what we refer to as "middle distances".
There’s nothing intrinsically special about middle distances, and these days there are far more horses bred to excel at up to a mile, rather than beyond it. (Of course, whether this is a good thing is another matter).
As far as I’m concerned, Black Caviar has already proved herself an outstanding champion, comparable in every way to the great middle distance heros we’ve all admired over the years.
It just happens to be the case that her metier is what we like to call "sprinting", (although quite what Quarter horse enthusiasts would make of that is open to debate), but she’s no less great for that.
"at least not at a mile" Exactly.A mile is not the preferred distance to judge a world class horse.Until he wins and beats the best beyond a mile he will be an (*) horse.Seems like his supporters refuse to recognise this limitation to Frankel.How can one rate him with the great Arc winners when he has never even run beyond a mile?How does he compare with the great Brigardier Gerard who raced over the classic distances.In one of the most eagerly anticipated races ever, Brigadier Gerard won in devastating fashion by three lengths from Mill Reef and My Swallow in the Guineas. Brigadier Gerard followed that victory with wins in the St. James’s Palace Stakes, the Sussex Stakes by five lengths, the Goodwood Mile by ten lengths, the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes by eight lengths, and the Champion Stakes. I look forward to Frankel doing as well this year! Or are they still afraid to run a Galileo beyond a mile?
* raced over a mile.
Like I said, the topic is ‘subjective’. Some racing fans might claim Red Rum to have been the greatest horse ever. Another might tout Provideo. Either way you wouldn’t get many Nijinsky fans agreeing.
As for the distance issue well the classic races are spread between 1 mile and 1.75 miles. A brilliant miler is a brilliant miler, and this horse for my money is the best I’ve ever seen at that distance.
You don’t have to be a genius to see Frankel’s ‘greatness’ it is glaringly apparent. He wins like a great horse. I mean a truly great horse! He simply crucified Canford Cliffs in the Sussex Stakes. In the 2,000 Guineas he made every yard and was 15 lengths clear at the Bushes yet still finished
lengths out in front. There are old hands in the town here that will tell you they’ve never seen anything like that in the Guineas in fifty years of racing.Whether one believes Frankel to be the ‘BHITW’ or not is entirely an individual thing I guess, but nobody in their right mind can deny his brilliance.
As racing fans perhaps we ought to be simply celebrating a history making horse rather than bickering about where his place is in the racing hall of fame.
Poor old Andy. He will never have it. It kills him that this horse is so good.
STS was a fantastic horse – in his 3 year old campaign with the weight allowance. Nothing special at 2 and retired before 4.
Frankel was a champion at 2. A champion at 3. His 4 year old career awaits where he steps up in trip and Andy’s last straw is dropped. As Hammy says – this is not rocket science. Anyone with two eyes and a hole in their a*se can see what an amazing once in a lifetime horse this is.
"This horse doesn’t just beat horses, he destroys them!"
"Frankel has destroyed them from halfway."
"Can Canford Cliffs who is starting to hang, go with him. NO. A resounding NO!"
"FanTAStic Frankel"What will the commentators come up with this year?! Can’t wait!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Frankel IS the best horse in the world – it’s official.
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Love the part in the Sussex Stakes when Simon Holt says with a quiver in his excited voice "Ooooh, this is a brilliant horse" as Frankel’s turbo kicks in to see off Canford Cliffs
Also, I read somewhere that the reason Canford Cliffs veered to the left (in the above race) was because he couldn’t stand Frankel’s exhaust fumes
I don’t agree that a horse can’t be considered an outstanding champion unless he/she has won Group 1s at 10f to 12f, what we refer to as "middle distances".
There’s nothing intrinsically special about middle distances, and these days there are far more horses bred to excel at up to a mile, rather than beyond it. (Of course, whether this is a good thing is another matter).
As far as I’m concerned, Black Caviar has already proved herself an outstanding champion, comparable in every way to the great middle distance heros we’ve all admired over the years.
It just happens to be the case that her metier is what we like to call "sprinting", (although quite what Quarter horse enthusiasts would make of that is open to debate), but she’s no less great for that.
Bob Baffert and Todd Pletcher got their start as QH trainers, so it wouldn’t faze them. QHs do run up to 1000 yards, and the 870 yard + races are often mixed-the TBs run against the quarters. Nowadays most racing QHs are like 15/16 TB anyway.
Believe it or not, it’s getting harder to find quarter horses who can actually run a quarter mile or more. 330 yards seems to be the new normal, and many are at 200. The focus on sprinting TBs has affected other breeds as well.But back to the topic: Black Caviar really hasn’t done herself any favors by sticking to Australia for so long. At 21-for-21 the only horse above her is Kincsem, yet she doesn’t seem to garner as much attention as Zenyatta did. And it’s not like Zenyatta was facing world-class competition every race, but at least she showed up in the Breeders Cup three years running. Even going to Ascot I’m not sure how much she proves. She either has to face Frankel – and while preferably it would be at a sprint distance, since Frankel can sprint better than BC can route, it’ll likely be at a mile if it ever does happen – or she can travel over here and meet our speedsters. The best turf sprinters aren’t in Europe, they’re in Australia and the USA.
Poor old Andy. He will never have it. It kills him that this horse is so good.
STS was a fantastic horse – in his 3 year old campaign with the weight allowance. Nothing special at 2 and retired before 4.
Frankel was a champion at 2. A champion at 3. His 4 year old career awaits where he steps up in trip and Andy’s last straw is dropped. As Hammy says – this is not rocket science. Anyone with two eyes and a hole in their a*se can see what an amazing once in a lifetime horse this is.
"This horse doesn’t just beat horses, he destroys them!"
"Frankel has destroyed them from halfway."
"Can Canford Cliffs who is starting to hang, go with him. NO. A resounding NO!"
"FanTAStic Frankel"What will the commentators come up with this year?! Can’t wait!!!
It was Jim McGrath (Channel 4 version), who said "This horse doesn’t just beat horses, he destroys them!". He prefaced this with "A couple of years ago, we had a horse that beat horses", this quite obviously referred to Sea The Stars.
I’m with Hurdy Gurdy on this one, STS was clearly a very good colt, but it was in a pretty bad year in which he was invariably ridden out to beat moderate opposition.
There’s a buzz every time Frankel turns out, this is not because he a good horse thats a bit better than the others, it’s because he’s an astonishing horse that simply crushes the opposition leaving no room for debate about his brilliance. We can judge this by the quality and achievements of the horses destroyed by Frankel.
Lets hope Frankel stays sound and is able to get the chance to finally put to bed the (he hasn’t won over "classic" distances argument).
Sea the Stars as a 3yo beat everything that came along from the Guineas up to and into the Ark.He started with the Guineas and ended with the Ark.He was never beaten at any distance as a 3yo. Now talk to me about Frankel as a 3yo.Nijinsky won the Guineas on the bridle fron 3 furlongsand continues on through the Derby unbeaten to win the St leger.Started with the Guineas and ended with the St.Leger as a 3yo. Now talk to me about Frtankel as a 3yo.As for the "poor old Andy" quite endearing, I am both poor and old but that only sharpens my judgement.
But back to the topic: Black Caviar really hasn’t done herself any favors by sticking to Australia for so long. At 21-for-21 the only horse above her is Kincsem, yet she doesn’t seem to garner as much attention as Zenyatta did. And it’s not like Zenyatta was facing world-class competition every race, but at least she showed up in the Breeders Cup three years running. Even going to Ascot I’m not sure how much she proves.
PLEASE!!!
(a) It’s not Black Caviar’s decision where she races.
(b)Not as much attention as Zenyatta?? Maybe in the US "fishbowl" she doesn’t, everywhere else that knows & cares about racing outside their own country gives her far more attention than Z.
(c) Breeders Cups you say – she never had to travel, She did beat a World class field in the Classic, She lost against an average field the year after (yes, butchered by the jockey) & she beat fillies & mares the first time. The BC aint be all & end all of race meetings.
(d) Let’s look at their records…Zenyatta raced 20 times for 19-1-0 (should have been 20-0-0).
All bar 2 of those races were aginst her own sex!!
1 x G1 Open
12 x G1’s F&M
4 x G2’s F&MBlack Caviar 21-0-0
11 x G1 Open
1 x G1 F&M
6 x G2 Open
1 x G2 3yo OpenI’m sorry, Zenyatta was a great champion but she doesn’t hold a candle to Black Caviar.
I agree re the decision to go to the UK though, nothing to gain bar showing the English how good she is first hand. I think that it’s more about the owners than the horse which is a shame. She shopuld have gone to Dubai, Japan & Hong Kong.
Even going to Ascot I’m not sure how much she proves.
I agree re the decision to go to the UK though, nothing to gain bar showing the English how good she is first hand. I think that it’s more about the owners than the horse which is a shame. She shopuld have gone to Dubai, Japan & Hong Kong.
I too agree about going to Ascot, what did it do for Miss Andretti? We get Choisir, Exceed and Excel, Star Witness, they had stud careers to establish, otherwise Takeover Target, Scenic Blast, Black Caviar, what’s the point? It’s not $$ so must be the fun of it for the owners.
When you think about it she’s got everything to lose at Ascot – such a long journey – completely different course type – and nothing much to gain financially to make it worth the punt.
Marbine, you also forgot to mention that 2 of Zenyatta’s G1s were in
invitational
events, which don’t really count as black type races in my eyes.
Marbine,can you see the irony of what you are saying about Black Caviar?Has Frankel done himself any favors by staying in England and refusing to run beyond a mile? If he is as good as they say he should be proving it in world competition since the middle of last yuear.Instead Henry runs him in his own back yard and lays down a challenge to all and sundry.Come here and fight in my ring with my judges and my ref.Cotton balls and window dressing and all the rest to prove he cannot be beaten.Sorry but I don’t buy the sizzle; I would like to taste the steak.
What IS the point of travelling around the world to win races when the best horses come and race here? Did you see the Singapore Mile the other day? Won by Extension. He was not even Group 1 class here. I didn’t see STS jettng round the world. He didnt need to. Nor does Frankel. In fact many great horses earned their reputations from racing solely in their own country. That is a weak arguement and one you can only use because there is nothing else!
For the life of me I cannot understand why people look to criticise such an obviously brilliant horse. I wouldn’t dream of putting down Black Caviar. I thought Sea The Stars was magnificent and a true great. I COULD say "oh he retired at 3" "oh his trainer wouldnt let him run on ground worse than good" "oh he didnt beat his rivals by much" but SO WHAT! His wonderful trainer did what was best for him in the same way as Sir H will do what is right for his horse.
We ALL want to see him prove it at 4. We ALL want to see him prove he can be as effective over further. I think it is very important that he tries that. But versatility in trip is surely not the only criteria for attaining greatness. There is versatility in tactics and ground. There is durability over a period of time. There is the ease with which one horse beats others. There is the QUALITY of the horses they beat. There is the different types of tracks. Lots of things.
I am a racing fan. I love great horses whether they are American, Australian, Irish or English and I wish we could all celebrate this great horse rather than try and pick holes and say ah yes but he hasnt done this or he hasnt done that or he hasnt raced here. I am asking too much because the world is full of people who for whatever reason cannot just enjoy a rare thing of beauty. But I for one will cheer Frankel to the rafters on Saturday just as I will cheer BC when she runs at Ascot, just as I cheered STS when he won at Longchamp.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
"What IS the point of travelling around the world to win races when the best horses come and race here? Did you see the Singapore Mile the other day? Won by Extension"
ROTFLMAO!!!
I think Extension answered that one mateMarbine,can you see the irony of what you are saying about Black Caviar?Has Frankel done himself any favors by staying in England and refusing to run beyond a mile? If he is as good as they say he should be proving it in world competition since the middle of last yuear.Instead Henry runs him in his own back yard and lays down a challenge to all and sundry.Come here and fight in my ring with my judges and my ref.Cotton balls and window dressing and all the rest to prove he cannot be beaten.Sorry but I don’t buy the sizzle; I would like to taste the steak.
The highest rated British trained horse of all time, Brigadier Gerard ( a horse Pat Eddery recently called " a machine " ) never raced outside of England.
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