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More Joyous could have come to Royal Ascot to compete in the Queen Anne. Her trainer, Gai Waterhouse, was up for it but her owner, John Singleton, declined. The mare is good but definitely not in Excelebration’s class, let alone Frankel’s.
How do you know that?
I’m not saying she’s better than Frankel, or any other horse, only saying some of you people (not saying all but its probably not far off that) are pretty clueless about racing in Australia.
Your comments would seem to indicate you’re in that ignorant majority who has no idea.
By the way the list of UK’s supposed best quality stayers in the world who have travelled and got smashed in the melb cup is LONG.
Not saying our stayers are better, far from it, but this hubris-like assumption that the ranks run far deeper in the UK for every category other than sprinters is not on the mark either in my opinion.
I agree with you – Aussie racing is a largely unknown quantity to me apart from the very largest names, so i cannot really comment with any certainty.
You lot must surely be very proud about the excitement this Mare is stirring over here in anticapation of Royal Ascot. I’m very eager to see her in action on these shores, and also very eager to see Frankel this weekend. If they could remain unbeaten this season and meet back-end at 7f in a match, this would be some event. This is what its all about surely, not these daft nationalistic virtual p***ing contests.
Somebody said that the trainer of Frankel would bring the most modern training skills to the job unlike the trainers from the seventies(referring to Secretariate). He must not know who is training Frankel.Incidentally giving a horse better feed does not make a better horse;it makes a better fed horse.
More Joyous could have come to Royal Ascot to compete in the Queen Anne. Her trainer, Gai Waterhouse, was up for it but her owner, John Singleton, declined. The mare is good but definitely not in Excelebration’s class, let alone Frankel’s.
How do you know that?
I’m not saying she’s better than Frankel, or any other horse, only saying some of you people (not saying all but its probably not far off that) are pretty clueless about racing in Australia.
Your comments would seem to indicate you’re in that ignorant majority who has no idea.
By the way the list of UK’s supposed best quality stayers in the world who have travelled and got smashed in the melb cup is LONG.
Not saying our stayers are better, far from it, but this hubris-like assumption that the ranks run far deeper in the UK for every category other than sprinters is not on the mark either in my opinion.
I agree with you – Aussie racing is a largely unknown quantity to me apart from the very largest names, so i cannot really comment with any certainty.
You lot must surely be very proud about the excitement this Mare is stirring over here in anticapation of Royal Ascot. I’m very eager to see her in action on these shores, and also very eager to see Frankel this weekend. If they could remain unbeaten this season and meet back-end at 7f in a match, this would be some event. This is what its all about surely, not these daft nationalistic virtual p***ing contests.
Here in Australia we have 4 dedicated horseracing channels and you can basically bet on anything that has 4 legs and moves! And not talking betfair…..there are betting terminals in most Aussie pubs that cater for racing all over the world. You can sit in some Aussie pubs at 10 o’clock at night and legally bet on South Africa, Hong Kong, UK, and USA racing at the same time, and watch them run live on the 50 inch plasma above the bar!
As a result of having much easier access coverage of international racing I think we’ve generally got at the very least as good or better grip/idea on your good horses as you guys do on ours.
And that’s probably not saying much because I’d hardly rate myself an expert on UK racing. But I watch UK racing regularly and know enough to know Aussie racing is a much better product but more importantly quality-wise isn’t far off anything anywhere in the world. The influx of shuttle stallions means we’ve got many of your great bloodlines here but also our best colonial bloodlines which you don’t have access to over there.
How many Redoute’s Choice, Lonhro, or Encosta De Lago 3yo’s have you seen racing in the UK? I’d assume next to none.
Black Caviar is a great horse, but I’m actually quite nervous about her going over there with all the lofty expectations. Fingers crossed everything goes well. If you go watch her walk around the mounting yard you’ll be amazed how powerful she is.
"But I watch UK racing regularly and know enough to know Aussie racing is a much better product but more importantly quality-wise isn’t far off anything anywhere in the world."
The "quality-wise" debate is pointless, as it is all opinions even down to the official handicappers, until they race each other.
"Better product" – in your opinion i presume, not one i would share. I like the sheer variety of UK tracks personally.
I presume you convicts will be falling over each other backing Black Caviar when she runs in the UK, she’s currently available at 8/13 and looking at RP records she tends to strart at 1/20 (!) at home?
Yes joni, an exceptional lot.
Ginger, do you honestly think that an Australian 3yo winning 9 of 9, only 2 outside of his age group, would ever, ever be given a rating of 143? Personally I can’t see it.
Yes, it is possible, although highly unlikely Marbine……….There might be a horse running in Australian mile and middle distance races that is capable of showing a 143 or 136, but because he/she hasn’t got good horses to run against is unable to show he/she is a 143 or 136, so is unable to be rated as such. Australian sprinters as a bunch are better than any other distance group in your country. So it was always likely Australian sprinters were going to achieve the highest ratings.
Before Choisir went over and spanked your lot Aussie sprinters were largely unknown in the UK, and definitely not rated as high as they are now that you’ve seen them run. What price did he start in the kings stand again? Wasn’t it 20-1 or something completely ridiculous? But Star Witness, a horse not fit to lace Choisir’s boot straps, is worthy of a 5-1 or so quote?
You’ve seen a couple other Aussies go over who weren’t just sprinters – Starcraft, Haradasun, & Elvstroem – Aussies wouldn’t rate any of those amongst our best milers or middle distance horses either…..but they all managed to be competitive over there didn’t they?
So You Think has won multiple group races in the UK.
Has the penny not dropped that maybe we might have some fairly decent gallopers tucked away who are milers or middle distance horses, and just because you are ignorant and know nothing about them, it might not mean that they aren’t world class horses too?
Seems crazy that anyone attempting to creditably discuss the topic of world class horses has never heard of the Lightning Stakes at Flemington.
The horse you’ve never heard of who ran last in that race could possibly be a good group level sprinter in the UK!
SYT was always better than your derby & arc winner Workforce. Do you think he’s the only decent mile/middle distance type horse we’ve had? More Joyous could almost be as good as Frankel but you’d all scoff and giggle because you’ve never heard of her!
Is your post aimed at me AIC? I don’t see why you need to be so confrontational.
But if you want to play it that way…If you take a closer look at my post, I was talking (like the thread title) about the very best of the very best. Horses capable of not only winning a good Group 1, but winning it easily or by many lengths. Haradasun and Starcraft were good, wonderfully genuine racehorses (I wouldn’t call Elvstroem good), but they weren’t the very best of Group 1 winners. As indeed your own post admits. So we agree!
My post said about 136 or 143 rated horses. Haradasun came nowhere near that and nor did Starcraft.I don’t know whether you’ve heard of a competition called the totetentofollow? Many thousands of people take part. Where (roughly speaking) punters choose 10 horses at the begining of the season and whoever picks the best list wins hundreds of thousands of pounds. There’s also a Royal Ascot mini competition where the best list that week gets £10,000. Well in 2008 I was leading after the first day, with Haradasun in the Queen Anne one of my winners.
So I’d picked Haradasun out from what he’d done in Australia; before he’d even run in Europe. So don’t be an arrogant Aussie, claiming we are "ignorant and know nothing about them". I’d picked him out as a horse who might do well over here, even if you didn’t think he was up to much. Indeed, you’re not exactly telling the truth (either that or not such a good judge of your own racing as you’d like us to believe). In Timeform Racehorses Of 2007 (before Haradasun came over here) he was rated the co top-rated four year old in Australia with Mentality (very apt). For winning the George Ryder and Doncaster Handicap. Before Starcraft came over he was just 2 lbs less than the top rated 4 year old Exceed And Excel, in a strange campaign, being sent to New Zealand. Improved a bit over here when trained by Luca Cumani.
Of course there are some Australian milers and middle-distamce horses capable of being "competitive" over here; even winning one or two races. So yes, you "have some fairly decent gallopers tucked away who are milers or middle distance horses"… But we’re talking about the real top of the top quality racehorses… And Australian sprinters are ON THE WHOLE better than your milers and middle-distance horses. That’s not denagrating your racing, that’s just how it is. Contrastingly, British sprinters which are as good as our milers and middle-distance brigade are farely rare too.
Workforce was never at his best last year (very few from the trainer were) and best at 1m4f, So You Think beat him at 1m2f. I’d have them equals anyway.
You think beating Manighar 2 1/2 lengths while getting weight from the ex-English horse – is as good as Frankel AIC???
If you think More Joyous is as good as Frankel, then you really are a crazy Aussie. Even if we allow for Manighar improving a bit down under.Value Is EverythingHow many Redoute’s Choice, Lonhro, or Encosta De Lago 3yo’s have you seen racing in the UK? I’d assume next to none.
They’re certainly good stallions AIC, but we’ve got plenty of very similar stallions over here.
We have plenty of Danehills. Redoute’s Choice is inbred to Northern Dancer.
Encosta De Lago is by Saddlers Wells’ brother Fariy King from a female line including Sir Ivor and Mr Prospector.
Lonhro is less classical European/USA, but does have Sir Ivor on the tail male line and again Mr Prospector on the dams side.Encosta De Lago had a season in Ireland, I can’t remember anything good from his crop. Stand to be corrected.
Value Is Everything"So don’t be an arrogant Aussie, claiming we are "ignorant and know nothing about them". "
Ginger, I won’t speak on AIC’s behalf but another poster, HGM, claimed he had never heard of the Lightning Stakes until recently. I’m sure he is included in your "we" in the above quote. I’m sure that individuals in each hemisphere do thier homework just as I’m sure there are probably more that are either illinformed or not informed.
The Lightning Stakes has been the benchmark WFA Sprint in Oz for over 20 years now, many of our "champions" have won the race. I know that you’ve seen the likes of Nicconi – he was an exception, had talent but very inconsistent, Miss Andretti (had a good season or 2) but I urge you to look up horses like Schillaci, Mahogany (dual winner whom also won 2 Derbies!). Of course you know Choisir & Take Over Target. The only one of those that would get near Black Caviar is Schillaci and only as a 3yo…
Here in Australia we have 4 dedicated horseracing channels and you can basically bet on anything that has 4 legs and moves! And not talking betfair…..there are betting terminals in most Aussie pubs that cater for racing all over the world. You can sit in some Aussie pubs at 10 o’clock at night and legally bet on South Africa, Hong Kong, UK, and USA racing at the same time, and watch them run live on the 50 inch plasma above the bar!
What over-round do Australian bookmakers work to and do you pay tax on your bets?
Value Is Everything"So don’t be an arrogant Aussie, claiming we are "ignorant and know nothing about them". "
Ginger, I won’t speak on AIC’s behalf but another poster, HGM, claimed he had never heard of the Lightning Stakes until recently. I’m sure he is included in your "we" in the above quote. I’m sure that individuals in each hemisphere do thier homework just as I’m sure there are probably more that are either illinformed or not informed.
The Lightning Stakes has been the benchmark WFA Sprint in Oz for over 20 years now, many of our "champions" have won the race. I know that you’ve seen the likes of Nicconi – he was an exception, had talent but very inconsistent, Miss Andretti (had a good season or 2) but I urge you to look up horses like Schillaci, Mahogany (dual winner whom also won 2 Derbies!). Of course you know Choisir & Take Over Target. The only one of those that would get near Black Caviar is Schillaci and only as a 3yo…
You don’t have to convince me how good Black Caviar is Marbine, already said she’s exceptional.
To be honest, I don’t take any notice of Takeover Target’s exploits after he had to be withdrawn from a race in Hong Kong (or was it Singapore?) due to a lot of steroids being found in his system.
I realise AIC was talking about others as well in his post (not just me) but the quote he chose was mine.
The thing I love about Australian racing is connections willingness to run their horses at different trips.
Value Is EverythingNot really thread related, apologies. Ginger, see link below..
What that Australian article leaves out (if I were a conspiracy theorist I might say "conveniently leaves out") is that Janiak did not withdraw the horse, he refused and the stewards were forced to do so for him. And that Janiak claimed the steroid was accidentally injected in to a ligament rather than a muscle, resulting in the substance not being released so quickly. It was such a major breach of the rules that some experts (and I am not talking about Mark Johnston) were reportedly of the opinion that the steroid could stay there permanently.
How
careless
.
mistaking a ligament for a muscle.Value Is EverythingGinger my ‘confrontational’ comments were not aimed at you specifically mate. Don’t worry whatever I write here it’s always with a
on the other side of the screen.I find it bemusing that you use Timeform ratings to judge Aussie horses almost it seems as a direct and literal comparison to the UK ones. As whoever earlier said, handicappers ratings are just another person’s opinions too…..and I’ve never seen 12 horses crossing the line at the same time…..so the handicapper is ALWAYS wrong in a way isn’t he?
It’s a widely held belief in Australia that Timeform is heavily biased towards UK horses. Hawk Wing – now there’s a hair brain looney tunes rating for you!
Actually the main thing I have an issue with on here is when I see stuff like this:
"…but because he/she hasn’t got good horses to run against…"
It’s the underlying assumption from you that UK racing is superior to Aussie racing across all levels bar the sprinters. I’d guess before Choisir you’d have assumed your sprinters superior too?
If I wrote Frankel couldn’t possible be ranked so high because he hasn’t got good horses to run against there, you’d laugh your tits off.
I don’t think Elvstroem was within 6 lengths of his best Aussie form when in UK.
Couldn’t be bothered checking – but who said Starcraft improved a little with Cumani???? What makes you think he did that? Just because he won one of your premier mile races over there?
Fair dinkum boys. AIC is right. Aussie horses are far superior to ours in every way. Look at So You Think’s recent form figures if you don’t believe me. One of the all time great’s over there struggling to make the frame elsewhere in the world. Frankel wouldnt win a handicap in Oz. Luckily Sir Hen couldnt give a 4X!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Fair dinkum boys. AIC is right. Aussie horses are far superior to ours in every way. Look at So You Think’s recent form figures if you don’t believe me. One of the all time great’s over there struggling to make the frame elsewhere in the world. Frankel wouldnt win a handicap in Oz. Luckily Sir Hen couldnt give a 4X!
Strewth cobber fair suck of the sav. Listen up pom, it’s like this, Aussie sprinters are superior as a general rule, your stayers are superior as a general rule, and everything else in between isn’t as uneven as you’d like to think.
Got it now geeza?
SYT one our ALL TIME GREATS? Don’t confuse the Coolore Hyperbole with the facts tsk tsk, and no, Frankel wouldn’t win a handicap over here. With a timeform rating of 142 he’d be asked to carry 2 jockeys!
"I presume you convicts will be falling over each other backing Black Caviar when she runs in the UK, she’s currently available at 8/13 and looking at RP records she tends to start at 1/20 (!) at home?"
I appreciate things have moved on since my above comment – but i am very interested in recieving an Australian perspective / reply regarding the pricing.
But if you want to play it that way…
My post said about 136 or 143 rated horses. Haradasun came nowhere near that and nor did Starcraft.
on the other side of the screen.
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