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I would concur; you must be totally blind if you cannot see that Kauto Star did not travel in the Gold Cup, long before Denman applied any pressure. Or did Neptune Collonges take him out of his comfort zone?
Well, let’s watch the race again, shall we ?
I’ve watched it enough. So, based on that race Neptune Collonges travels as well as Kauto Star for most of the race. Do you not see something amiss here? Please tell me what piece of form NC has to rival Kauto Star?
Kauto Star [b:312bni2k]is[/b:312bni2k] a superstar, has won numerous grade ones at 4 different distances.
Or, is Arkle the only superstar there was, is or ever shall be?
Kauto is no superstar and neither is Denman (at this stage).
I would ask what more Kauto Star has to do in your eyes to merit the term ‘superstar’? He isn’t in Arkle’s league, but he is right up there with the best of the last 30 years, imo.
As for Kauto Star not showing his true form at Cheltenham? He didn’t do too badly when running inThe 2007 Gold Cup, did he ? He just came up against a better jumper and more resolute galloper in 2008, and arguably a better horse.
Clearly, the 2007 Gold Cup took a deal less winning than the most recent version. For me, Kauto Star has run to more or less the same level in both races. The suggestion that either GC run was a reflection of KS’s best possible form is utterly preposterous, quite frankly. The proximity of Turpin Green and Neptune Collonges in both races should tell you that.
Without taking anything away from Denman, it seems quite clear to me that KS ran well below his best form (I’d say between 10lbs and a stone) on both outings at Cheltenham.
Don’t know why he wouldn’t consider sending Kauto to Punchestown for the Heineken Gold Cup (3m).
Neptune Collonges won it last year – I suppose the plan might be to send him again.
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Kauto Star didn´t travel well, and made far too many mistakes for the Gold Cup run be his normal form. Also to say he lacked the stamina for 3m 2f ignores the fact that he was making ground on Denman at the end of the race.
For my money, the sticky ground did for him, and with Exotic Dancer palpably not running his race, the principals finished exactly as their ratings suggested they should. A good Gold Cup, but certainly wrong to use KS in judging it a great one, that was not his proper form.
On anything but similar holding ground, I doubt there is a horse in the country that could hold KS off levels at Aintree.Neptune has improved from last year. Paul Nicholls has said so himself.
The fact is that Kauto Star ran on more favourable ground last year and was able to utilise his speed against inferior horses. If you watch closely, Denman and Sam Thomas had every horse and jockey under pressure a long way from home, including Kauto Star. His injection of pace caught Ruby Walsh napping – and unlike last year’s opposition – which included The Listener, State of Play, Turpin Green and Exotic Dancer (whom KS has always held on form) – there was no way Denman was going to come back to his pursuers once he had set sail for home – as those of us who backed Denman had predicted beforehand would happen.
I suggest that Kauto Star encountered a more worthy class of opponent this time round in Denman – and quite simply couldn’t assert his authority and so called superiority over him as he previously done with lesser opponents. The majority of good horses eventuallly meet their match. Sadly for Kauto Star and his supporters, he met his on March 14th, 2008.
oh, and
Why mention Arkle ?
Maybe because he was a true equine superstar – in every sense ?
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Himself, the reason I mentioned Arkle was because I wanted to understand whether this was your measure of a “superstar”.
If that is your measure (and from your response, it seems clear that it is), then no horse is ever going to be a superstar, so why bother your ar*se referring to the superlative in the first place??
Neptune Collonges may well have improved from last year, but almost certainly not to the tune of about 20lbs, which is what would have been needed for him to finish upsides an in-form Kauto Star.
Firstly, I think its fair to say that one of Kautos least impressive wins for me came in last years Gold Cup, at least compared to his tingle creek and the King George. He ran pretty much as well this year as he did last year for me anyhow.
Also, the simple fact with horses is this. If they are fit, happy, seem to have gotten over the effects of previous races, run them if the conditions give them a chance of winning. Why not?? If you have an obsession with one race and one race only, thats fine for connections but Joe Public (thats me) isnt going to warm any more to racing as a sport because of it. We deserve to see our heros. Theres a risk that a horse could be gone OTT by this time of year but thats all it is, a risk and if the Jockey has a brain, he wont kill the poor beast.
SHL
Himself, the reason I mentioned Arkle was because I wanted to understand whether this was your measure of a “superstar”.
If that is your measure (and from your response, it seems clear that it is), then no horse is ever going to be a superstar, so why bother your ar*se referring to the superlative in the first place??
Because the word superstar is over-used and bandied about too often these days – whether it is in reference to footballers, pop stars, or indeed, race horses. I am fan of Kauto Star; I have said so many times on here – goodness knows, I have won enough money from backing him more times than not. The twice I have deserted him ( when backing Monet’s and Denman against him), I have done so for what I considered good and, as it turned out, the correct reasons.
I know and accept it is unfair for other horses to be put up against Arkle – but having watched horse racing for the best part of five decades now, I really don’t think Kauto Star is anymore of a superstar than say, Desert Orchid was – or for that matter Moscow Flyer, Silver Buck, Pendil, Crisp or Burrough Hill Lad were. Very good horses, yes – but, superstars? In my opinion, most definitley not.
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So no ‘superstar’ steeplechasers for over 40 years then, Himself?
No wonder clivex goes apoplectic at the mere mention of Arkle’s name, when this kind of mince is trotted out.
Arkle was a phenomenon. A one-off (unless you count Flyingbolt).
Let’s accept that, and move on, otherwise any debate of historical merit descends into complete and utter farce.
So no ‘superstar’ steeplechasers for over 40 years then, Himself?
No wonder clivex goes apoplectic at the mere mention of Arkle’s name, when this kind of mince is trotted out.
Arkle was a phenomenon. A one-off (unless you count Flyingbolt).
Let’s accept that, and move on, otherwise any debate of historical merit descends into complete and utter farce.
Clivex goes apoplectic at the mere mention of Arkle ? Aww, poor Clivex. Maybe he should see someone about that ? It can be cured, you know
Superstar steeplechasers? All depends what criteria you use to determine what merits a horse becoming a superstar. Red Rum’s three grand nationals and two seconds in the race aside, I suppose Desert Orchid has to be up there, as he has achieved probably more than any other chaser before or since shssh… you-know-who (for Clivex’s benefit, you understand
). Plenty of stars and great horse, yes – but superstars ?Nay … or should that be neigh ! Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
What is your definition of a superstar?
I think it defines the box-office horses as well as how great they are. Kauto is box office and Desert Orchid certainly was. Just look at the press coverage before this year’s Gold Cup and bear in mind that Kauto was applauded in the paddock and on the way out onto the course at Cheltenham.
If you win a Gold Cup, 2 King Georges, 2 Tingle Creeks & 2 Betfairs, you are a great IMO.
Suoerstar steeplechasers? All depends what criteria you use to determine what merits a horse becoming a superstar. Red Rum’s three grand nationals and two seconds in the race aside, I suppose Desert Orchid has to be up there, as he has achieved probably more than any other chaser before or since shssh… you-know-who
Perhaps you could clarify something for me, Himself.
Are you suggesting that Red Rum, thrice winner of possibly the least relevant race in the calendar – and a handicap to boot – is more of a superstar than Kauto Star, winner of two Tingle Creek’s, two King George’s and a Gold Cup (and several other G1 races)??
If so, then there appears to be little merit in debating this with you further, as we clearly have vastly different opinions about what a ‘superstar’ is.
Himself, the reason I mentioned Arkle was because I wanted to understand whether this was your measure of a “superstar”.
If that is your measure (and from your response, it seems clear that it is), then no horse is ever going to be a superstar, so why bother your ar*se referring to the superlative in the first place??
Because the word superstar is over-used and bandied about too often these days – whether it is in reference to footballers, pop stars, or indeed, race horses. I am fan of Kauto Star; I have said so many times on here – goodness knows, I have won enough money from backing him more times than not. The twice I have deserted him ( when backing Monet’s and Denman against him), I have done so for what I considered good and, as it turned out, the correct reasons.
I know and accept it is unfair for other horses to be put up against Arkle – but having watched horse racing for the best part of five decades now, I really don’t think Kauto Star is anymore of a superstar than say, Desert Orchid was – or for that matter Moscow Flyer, Silver Buck, Pendil, Crisp or Burrough Hill Lad were. Very good horses, yes – but, superstars? In my opinion, most definitley not.
I agree totally with you on this one Himself. You see the term superstar or star being bandied about so often in the media nowadays that it ceases to have much kind of a meaning – and the continual hyping up of horses and failure to view things in perspective just makes me see red. It goes on throughout the sporting and pop world as well as you say, and much of it is a marketing exercise in my opinion. Keep telling the public that something or someone is brilliant enough times and they may start to believe it – it is the old Goebbels technique.
Just to add my own bit of controversy into the equation, there is one horse who preceded Arkle, to whom I think the title of superstar could have been given – and that was the great Golden Miller
– but that is an argument for another day no doubt ! Is there any chance Arkle may be overrated?
Jim McGrath admitted a few weeks back that Arkle`s official rating could be argued against.
Himself, the reason I mentioned Arkle was because I wanted to understand whether this was your measure of a “superstar”.
If that is your measure (and from your response, it seems clear that it is), then no horse is ever going to be a superstar, so why bother your ar*se referring to the superlative in the first place??
Because the word superstar is over-used and bandied about too often these days – whether it is in reference to footballers, pop stars, or indeed, race horses. I am fan of Kauto Star; I have said so many times on here – goodness knows, I have won enough money from backing him more times than not. The twice I have deserted him ( when backing Monet’s and Denman against him), I have done so for what I considered good and, as it turned out, the correct reasons.
I know and accept it is unfair for other horses to be put up against Arkle – but having watched horse racing for the best part of five decades now, I really don’t think Kauto Star is anymore of a superstar than say, Desert Orchid was – or for that matter Moscow Flyer, Silver Buck, Pendil, Crisp or Burrough Hill Lad were. Very good horses, yes – but, superstars? In my opinion, most definitley not.
I agree totally with you on this one Himself. You see the term superstar or star being bandied about so often in the media nowadays that it ceases to have much kind of a meaning – and the continual hyping up of horses and failure to view things in perspective just makes me see red. It goes on throughout the sporting and pop world as well as you say, and much of it is a marketing exercise in my opinion. Keep telling the public that something or someone is brilliant enough times and they may start to believe it – it is the old Goebbels technique.
Just to add my own bit of controversy into the equation, there is one horse who preceded Arkle, to whom I think the title of superstar could have been given – and that was the great Golden Miller
– but that is an argument for another day no doubt ! Loved the Beatles too….
– but that is an argument for another day no doubt ! 
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