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You’re anti-racist, a bit left wing
A bit right-wing actually.
a bit trendy
You wouldn’t say that if you saw me.
Indeed, you’ve hardly posted for a few weeks and as soon as the little horse loses in a big race, you appear
I wouldn’t want the facts to get in the way of a good argument, but I’ve posted a number of times in the last fortnight … for starters, you can try the GW threads (before and after that race)
He won two Steve, btw. In the form book. You can’t just unwish it because it doesn’t suit your argument.
The fact he won 2 doesn’t mean he deserved to win either.
You can call that a "sneaky arguing technique". I’d call it plain speaking.
Let me just mention that your comment about mares etc was perhaps the most offensive post I have read on this board,
You should visit the lounge … :biggrin:
The horse has been overrated (though not by RPR who rated him on his actual achievements) because he won the Derby.
And that seems to cloud people’s vision.
But the Derby’s not that much of a race these days
(certainly less important than the Irish Derby if you’re looking for a proper G1 contender)
North Light won his Derby easily … never won again.
Movtivator … even easier … never won again.
Sir Percy … by the narrowest margin (and probably because Hala Bek jinked) … and it’s suddenly heresy to suggest he’d not win again.
Max, you defended your horse vigorously over the last 12 months, and I applaud that.
But I think it’s time to accept that the sceptics got it right and RPR were probably right to never rate him above 121.
(BTW, a rating achieved as a 4yo while finishing 4th in Dubai)
Steve
(Edited by stevedvg at 8:46 am on June 21, 2007)
Doesn’t Dylan Thomas’ run in the Prince of Wales and his relation to Sir Percy in that race add further credence to the fact he improved into a much better horse after Epsom than he was on the day.
What are you saying then Clivex, that Dylan Thomas ran to the same level in the Prince of Wales as he did in the Derby? I really don’t think so.
He has some form which is better than epsom but also much which is less than wonderful.
I would hardly have thought he was a better horse at york say, than at epsom. (looking briefly back at his form…interesting how busy DT has been)
Its clear to me that SP has regressed (not unusual for derby winners) since the big day
Quote: from clivex on 11:34 am on June 21, 2007[br]He has some form which is better than epsom  but also much which is less than wonderful.
I would hardly have thought he was a better horse at york say, than at epsom. (looking briefly back at his form…interesting how busy DT has been)
Its clear to me that SP has regressed (not unusual for derby winners) since the big day
Regressed or just met better horses Clive?
Steve, thanks for at least recognising my pathological championing of this horse and I apologise for my tone last night.
I was extremely upset after the PoW and shouldn’t have posted. You offer a strong, if highly contestable, argument as usual. You have to be unemotional to respond and I am afraid that doesn’t describe me at the moment.
I was surprised and concerned that some members didn’t moderate their opinions in the immediate aftermath of the race, knowing that there are many keen fans of the horse in the community.
But then, it’s an open access forum and its not my place to impose a moral continuum on other posters.
I shall leave it for others to provide a postscript as I pointedly disagree with most of the posts here – which is what you would expect.
I would agree that much of the criticism of Sir Percys exploits is probably unwarranted. Ok the derby form hasnt worked out magnificently. but DT has proved to be a very good horse. imo tho the best piece of evidence of his undoubted class is his 2000 guineas 2nd. Yes ok he was blown away by GW but that horse showed he could do that to any miler in europe in the QEII and for Percy the trip was inadequate and it was the class of the horse that got him there. he was then rushed back from injury to get to the derby, somehow won that though he must of gone through hell to get there. my point is that after being put through the pain barrier once to get to his derby and then again after it he is no longer the same horse. that is not a slur against him but recognition of what past achievements have taken out of him.
Lest we forget if it werent for the exceptional talent of George washington he would have won a dewhurst and a pair of classics.
Quote: from stevedvg on 11:04 pm on June 20, 2007[br]But stevo,  Didnt the horse run plenty of times before his lucky Derby win
Yes, he ran a number of times.
and was he a group 1 horse?
If you define a group 1 horse as one that would deservedly win a group 1 race, I would say "no".
Unless he luckily won the Dewhurst
Which he did.
and finished second in a guineas when he really should have finished a well beaten last in both?
He was well beaten in the guineas. The race was over well before the line.
Maybe you’d like to watch the race again and tell us at which point it’s obvious he can’t win?
(to the nearest furlong)
Im perfectly willing to listen to the time experts declare it a bit of a shambles that was actually won by horse that probably wouldnt stay 12f in there opinion
Wasn’t the reason the Derby was regarded as poor form down to the number and quality of the horses that were involved in a blanket finish?
In particular, Sir Percy performance was only a short head better than a horse that lost every one of his 8 races.
fact remains that he was a group 1 horse being that Group 1 horses are by definition horses that are competitive at group 1.
Well, that’s your definition.
IMO, he’s not a g1 horse because he should never have won a group 1.
If I remember rightly, his highest ever RPR was 121. <br>Seems a bit on the low side for a proper G1 horse who’s run so many times.
Steve<br>
<br>So steve…to summarise. He might be competitive at group 1 …..but was never a group 1 horse.
He luckily won several group 1s….but is not a group 1 horse.
OK.
On the subject of stud value since someone asked. Alot would be due also as to how he is bred. Alot of horses have never achieved quite as much as Sir Percy. but Imagine breeding would have allowed them to command a higher price at stud.
SHL
If they’d retired SP after the Derby no doubt all his detractors on here would have been up in arms that he’d been retired without having the chance to prove himself.
He was brought back after injury and unfortunately hasn’t progressed. But his achievements show that he was a good quality horse with the potential to be better than he has been able to show.
To hark on about how lucky he was to win the Derby, the Dewhurst, Goodwood(?!?!) does that make his achievements any less worthy? He was the one who was there to make the most of the opportunity. His run in the Guineas was a cracking effort, beating at least one Gp1 winner in Araafa in the process, and to win the Derby from an uncompromising position was another sound effort, regardless of what he beat (including a dual Gp1 winner)
However, it now looks as if he won’t recapture that level of form, but if he’s still sound and enjoying it, what’s the problem in letting him run at a lower level? I respect Tregoning and like him as a trainer, and trust that he will do the best by the horse, which is something I’m sure we can all agree on.
If they’d retired SP after the Derby no doubt all his detractors on here would have been up in arms that he’d been retired without having the chance to prove himself.
I agree.
This forum tends to be critical of horses that are campaigned to "work the hype machine" and then retired before they have to face proper competition.
(Holy Roman Emperor, for example)
And I think we’re right to criticise, because this policy doesn’t help the breed.
If SP had been retired after the Derby, I believe he would have had a reputation that far exceeded the quality of the performances he’d put up on the racecourse.
And, because of this, he would have been in excessive demand at stud.
Now he’s had the chance to run a few more times (including a performance in Dubai which exceeded his RPRs at 2-3yo), the excessive praise has been wiped away and we see a horse that deserves his place in G1 and G2 races, but isn’t really competitive at the top level.
In some ways he reminds me of another "derby" winner: Blue Canari.
He won the Prix du Jockey Club in 2004.
Like SP’s Derby, it was a slow run race with a multiple photo finish and was won by a horse that got lucky in <br>the sprint to the line.
And, like SP, he never won again.
The difference seems to be that no-one though BC was much of a horse after his G1 win.
Nor did they try to "talk up the form" by using Valixir’s subsequent G1 victories.
(like Dylan Thomas is used by Sir Percy fans)
Steve
PS I think SP is a better horse than Blue Canari and, although RPR gave BC 118 for both the Jockey Club and the Arc, I’d have him a lot more than 3lbs behind Percy.
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it wasn’t just Dylan Thomas that he beat though.<br>Also;<br> Sixties Icon      gp1 & gp2 wnr since<br> Best Alibi        gp2 wnr since<br> Papal Bull       gp2 wnr since<br>Plus quite a few other gp3 and lstd winners.
4 gp1’s and 3 gp2’s isn’t bad for a race where "the form didn’t work out"; few recent Derbys can boast as many subsequent successes?
that is a very nice point. and as far as the whole its better for the breed thing its not like mark of esteem has a reputation as a sire of sires. even if he had retired and been heavily subscribed to if he hadnt worked out as a sire he simply would have had no real impact on the breed. there are plenty of horses whose impact on the track has far outweighed that at stud and visa versa.
it wasn’t just Dylan Thomas that he beat though. <br>Also; <br>Sixties Icon gp1 & gp2 wnr since <br>Best Alibi gp2 wnr since <br>Papal Bull gp2 wnr since <br>Plus quite a few other gp3 and lstd winners.
4 gp1’s and 3 gp2’s isn’t bad for a race where "the form didn’t work out"; few recent Derbys can boast as many subsequent successes?
As I said before, this is meaningless.
It’s not about beating a horse that goes on to win a g1, it’s about beating a horse that puts in a G1 performance on the day.
To bring back the Blue Canari comparison, he beat 2 subsequent G1 winners (Valixir and Reefscape).
Plus, if I counted correctly 3 other horses that went on to win G2s.
What does that tell you about Blue Canari?
And, if we really want to have a laugh with meaningless formlines, let’s look at the fact that Blue Canari finished ahead of Pride, Tap Dance City and Grey Swallow in the Arc.
On a line through Pride, that makes him better than Hurricane Run, Shirocco and Deep Impact.
(somewhere, Zorro’s head has just exploded)
Steve
In some ways he reminds me of another "derby" winner: Blue Canari.
And he didnt do much before either
And when he won the derby ( was there that day) had a far better run of things than SP.
I think thats a rubbish comparison
I think thats a rubbish comparison
And you’re entitled to that opinion.
Rather than just saying "rubbish", I’ve given a clear explanation of where I see parallels between the 2004 Jockey CLub and 2006 Derby.
And I feel it demolishes the typical Sir Percy case that: "he finished ahead of Dylan Thomas, so he must be at least as good".
Sir Percy deserves to be regarded as a 120/121 horse on his day.
But I feel that attempts to "prove" he was better than that are either based on conjecture about "what he would have shown, but didn’t" or on very generous interpretations of form lines.
Steve
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