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the alternative being that Timeform’s jumps handicappers in the 1960s, who had only been doing the job a few years, got carried away with all the (quite justified) adulation. Which do you think is more likely?
Not impossible. Phil Bull’s reputation as antipathetic towards National Hunt racing as a whole preceded him; and whilst professional integrity
probably
still completely held sway, I don’t know if quite the same application of logic, or interest in the subject matter, would have informed the allotting to Arkle of such a high mark.
That’s not to say he still wouldn’t have been given a mark in excess of Kauto Star or Master Minded’s, but rather the margin between his and their best might or might not actually have been quite so pronounced.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Whether the Timeform figure is a true reflection of Arkle’s overall ablity or not is immaterial.
Err no its not.
Timeform’s figure is most certainly not immaterial, because it is the stick that is still used to beat every subsequent champion steeplechaser.
Timeform’s figure is most certainly not immaterial, because it is the stick that is still used to beat every subsequent champion steeplechaser.
Yes, but what a stick !
Ok, maybe 211 would have been a more realistic figure with which to beat them instead?
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Is anyone else getting bored of this now?
Neither "camp" is going to be converted.
Probably not, but if it continues for another couple of pages, it might finally get me up to "Classic winner" status, six years after joining.
Quite frankly we should be discussing Kauto Star V Dessie as anything V Arkle is a rediculous comparison.
What makes me laugh is when I joined this forum I said Kauto Star would be hailed as the best since Arkle and got laughed at by some of the people who are now arguing with others but in his camp.
To me the answer lies in the available vidoes. You just need to watch how easily Arkle comes up the hill. He looked like Sir Ivor finishing in the derby.
No one has come up with anything concrete to support the claim Kauto Star would have beat him whereas Arkle’s weight carrying achievements, the need for two separate handicaps, his rating, his magnificent jumping, his speed all have stood the test of time and are there for all to see.
No reputable judge would question Arkle was and still is the greatest steeplechaser of all time.
I think Kauto Star is what many owner and trainers hoped their horses would be called but never were and that is "The best since Arkle"
That is some accolade to be bestowed upon a horse and kauto Star IMO thouroughly deserves it.
just to throw my hat in the ring quickly …..
I believe 212 is absurd, and the fact that Flyingbolt (whether he was stabled next door or half the world away is immaterial) was rated at 210 at exactly the same time only adds to this. There is no human or animal in any sport, anywhere in the world that has ever been so far ahead of his/her contemparies (ignoring the aformentioned Flyingbolt, of course)
If times in athletics were irrelevant, then you’d have a really hard time trying to convince me there’d ever been a sprinter who was comparable to Bob Hayes. In his day (very similar time to Arkle’s heyday) he was a man amongst boys – honestly, at the time I thought "there will never be another human born with ability to run like this man". He was outrageously good. Ok, so training techniques have advanced, as have track surfaces, running spikes etc… but the bare truth is that BH’s best time was something that Usain Bolt can now run without coming out of a canter.
Maybe it’s not the best comparison, humans and horses are chalk and cheese. But there is no way that Arkle is 2 stone superior to an on-song Kauto Star. It’s beyond ludicrous
[
it might finally get me up to "Classic winner" status, six years after joining.…ironically enough, given this thread has nish all to do with the Flat.
I still await the day Corm introduces a second list of statuses (to run alongside the existing one), whereby we gentle jumps folk can progress from "Ted Caine inmate" to "Cartmel selling hurdler" and eventually arrive at "triple Gold Cup winner" some 5,000 posts later.
Do it, Corm, you know you want to.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
That would make you Best Mate then Jeremy- surely not as lightly raced as him though?
[
it might finally get me up to "Classic winner" status, six years after joining.…ironically enough, given this thread has nish all to do with the Flat. 8)
I still await the day Corm introduces a second list of statuses (to run alongside the existing one), whereby we gentle jumps folk can progress from "Ted Caine inmate" to "Cartmel selling hurdler" and eventually arrive at "triple Gold Cup winner" some 5,000 posts later.
Do it, Corm, you know you want to. :lol:
gc
Could I suggest Maiden, Intermediate, Confined, Open, Hunter Chaser as Dom has on the JFF site and to apply to the flat brigade as well,
just to throw my hat in the ring quickly …..
I believe 212 is absurd, and the fact that Flyingbolt (whether he was stabled next door or half the world away is immaterial) was rated at 210 at exactly the same time only adds to this. There is no human or animal in any sport, anywhere in the world that has ever been so far ahead of his/her contemparies (ignoring the aformentioned Flyingbolt, of course)
If times in athletics were irrelevant, then you’d have a really hard time trying to convince me there’d ever been a sprinter who was comparable to Bob Hayes. In his day (very similar time to Arkle’s heyday) he was a man amongst boys – honestly, at the time I thought "there will never be another human born with ability to run like this man". He was outrageously good. Ok, so training techniques have advanced, as have track surfaces, running spikes etc… but the bare truth is that BH’s best time was something that Usain Bolt can now run without coming out of a canter.
Maybe it’s not the best comparison, humans and horses are chalk and cheese. But there is no way that Arkle is 2 stone superior to an on-song Kauto Star. It’s beyond ludicrous
212 is absurd so was Master Minded being rated higher than Kauto Star and Denman after beating the comparitively moderate VPU.
That doesn’t alter the fact that Arkle was in a class of his own and nothing during his reighn could blow wind up his backside at levels.
The rater (if that’s the right word to be using) is forever messing up. They were in the same situation with Flyingbolt back then as they were with MM. By memory he beat some horse called Height o" Fashion giving waway a similar amount of weight to him as Arkle had and bingo his rating shot up. He wasn’t within a stone of Arkle IMO but was a very good horse.
Whether you believe his rating or not is irrelevant. It is whether you believe he was a better horse or not that is.
"Whether you believe his rating or not is irrelevant. It is whether you believe he was a better horse or not that is."
well actually it’s entirely relevant – that was the entire crux of my argument. I can fully accept he was the best we’ve ever seen, it’s the rating that I cannot accept. At this rate, we’ll never see another horse even reach 200 – it would need a string of performances so monumentally exceptional that I can’t realistically imagine it. 210 and 212 are complete fiction
just to throw my hat in the ring quickly …..
I believe 212 is absurd, and the fact that Flyingbolt (whether he was stabled next door or half the world away is immaterial) was rated at 210 at exactly the same time only adds to this. There is no human or animal in any sport, anywhere in the world that has ever been so far ahead of his/her contemparies (ignoring the aformentioned Flyingbolt, of course)
If times in athletics were irrelevant, then you’d have a really hard time trying to convince me there’d ever been a sprinter who was comparable to Bob Hayes. In his day (very similar time to Arkle’s heyday) he was a man amongst boys – honestly, at the time I thought "there will never be another human born with ability to run like this man". He was outrageously good. Ok, so training techniques have advanced, as have track surfaces, running spikes etc… but the bare truth is that BH’s best time was something that Usain Bolt can now run without coming out of a canter.
Maybe it’s not the best comparison, humans and horses are chalk and cheese. But there is no way that Arkle is 2 stone superior to an on-song Kauto Star. It’s beyond ludicrous
I think you make perfectly valid points here. I imagine that many top class horses now running today under modern training techniques would beat the great from yesteryear but we work on the principle that they all get the same treatment. Arkles times were exceptional when compared with his peers. Arkle was much further clear of his contemporaries than Kauto .
No doubt we could argue that no modern racehorse will ever be asked to do what Arkle was doing. Giving other Gold cup standard horses upwards of 2 stone on a regular basis would not be considered the best thing.
What I do find rather interesting is that many people question how come such a horse like Arkle could exist at that same time as a horse like Mill House.
Yet at the same time, a sizeable number of people believe Denman to be a better 3 mile chaser than Kauto.
Whatever about the ratings and numbers and times etc, nobody who really has studied the career of Arkle will be brave enough to call any horse as good as him. He just seemed to be on a different planet.
SHL
Could I suggest Maiden, Intermediate, Confined, Open, Hunter Chaser as Dom has on the JFF site
Aye, they’d do!
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
That would make you Best Mate then Jeremy – surely not as lightly raced as him though?
No, true! And probably not as much of a punters’ friend, either!
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Fistly apologies for the length of post
As I was born in 1967 I wasn’t around when Arkle & Flyingbolt were in their prime, however it is fascinating reading about their exploits. It seems to me Flyingbolt was indeed a very good horse and versatile with it. To win a Champion Chase and an Irish National (giving away nigh on 3 stone) is impressive and would it be too far fetched to think had Arkle not been around he would have been more than capable of winning a Gold Cup ?
A Champion Chase winner and Gold Cup winner would have been something, not sure if it has ever been done. I could be wrong but did John Oaksey in his Biography think Flyingbolt was the better horse ?The following from Wikipedia would certainly bear comparison
"Chasing career
After his customary summer break, Flyingbolt was sent chasing in the autumn of 1964. He proceeded to win all 5 of his starts including the 2-mile Champion Novice Chase at Cheltenham (known then as the Cotswold Chase) and his final start at Fairyhouse where he carried 12st-2lbs to victory giving the second horse 37 lbs. His superiority was such that he started at odds-on in all of his races that season.He made his seasonal re-appearance in a handicap hurdle at the Phoenix Park on the 2nd October 1965 where he finished 4th when trying to concede 28 lbs and upwards to his rivals. Although beaten for the first time in more than two years, it was really only a warm-up race prior to the resumption of his chasing career, a sphere in which he still remained unbeaten. Flyingbolt proved to be a revelation during this season, winning all of his 6 chases with consummate ease ranging in distance from 2 miles to 3 and a quarter miles. He began with a victory in the Carey’s Cottage Handicap Chase at Gowran Park, winning by 5 lengths carrying 12st-2lbs and giving 32 lbs to the second horse. This was followed by a trip to Ascot in November where he won the prestigious Black & White Gold Cup in a canter by 15 lengths. For the first time in 8 starts over fences he started at odds-against for the Massey Ferguson Gold Cup at Cheltenham in December. The reason for what appeared to be a generous price was because he had been allotted 12st-6lbs in the race and had to give 25 lbs and more in weight to his 10 rivals, a task which many thought might prove to be beyond him. However those who backed him in from 5/1 to 5/2 favourite knew what he was capable of and he did not let them down. In one of the finest performances of his career, he took the lead with 3 to jump and galloped his rivals into the ground, drawing right away to win by 15 lengths in very testing conditions. Pat Taaffe described the race in his autobiography ‘My Life and Arkle’s:
"The ground at Cheltenham had been very heavy when we arrived, but by the time of the race unceasing rain had turned it into a sea of mud. For Flyingbolt, with twelve-stone-six to carry, you just couldn’t imagine anything worse……..I had Flyingbolt settled down nicely in the middle of the field, relaxed, jumping superbly and biding his time…….. Then, as planned, I made my first move going up the hill at the far end of the course and Flyingbolt, unleashed and free, began to fly through the field…….. At the top of the hill only Solbina and Scottish Memories were still in front. Flyingbolt went past and away from them, a man running against boys. Rounding the final bend, he was going so easily that he found time to jump a path across the course. He stormed up the hill, increasing the distance between him and his pursuers with every stride, to win by fifteen lengths from Solbina with Scottish Memories third. It was the manner of his victory, rather than the victory itself, that caused the furore. Men remembered that Scottish Memories had met Arkle twice in the previous season and stretched him on both occasions. In this selfsame race, the Massey-Ferguson, there had been thirty-three pounds and two lengths between them. And in the Leopardstown Chase, thirty-five pounds and one length. Now Flyingbolt had given him twenty-six pounds and left him sixteen and a half lengths behind. Didn’t this prove that Flyingbolt was now every bit as good as his more illustrious stable-mate?"
His next start was back at home in the Thyestes Handicap Chase at Gowran Park where he carried the now customary top weight and beat Height O’Fashion by a distance (in excess of 30 lengths) giving her 28 lbs with Flying Wild (who received 29 lbs) another 25 lengths back in third. Yet another astonishing performance. Indeed Arkle had failed by a length to give 32 lbs to Flying Wild in the previous season’s Massey-Ferguson Gold Cup.
His next port of call was the Cheltenham Festival for the 2-mile Champion Chase. He started at odds of 1-5, the shortest price in the history of the race and he won pulling up by 15 lengths. The comment beside his name in the Form Book afterwards said it all – "took lead 2 out, canter". This effort led many to regret that he wasn’t given the chance to take on Arkle in the Gold Cup. Unfortunately, because both were trained by the same man, this was always unlikely to happen. However, 24 hours after the Champion Chase, Flyingbolt re-appeared in the Champion Hurdle where despite taking on the specialist 2-mile hurdlers he started a short priced favourite. Although beaten by just over 3 lengths, Pat Taaffe was widely criticised for going round the outside and perhaps not letting this proven stayer set a clear lead earlier. As it was, Flyingbolt got too close to the fourth last and lost valuable ground which may well have cost him the race. It is also possible that Taaffe was mindful of the fact that he had just raced the previous day and instead of kicking on down the hill in order to make full use of his stamina, he waited till the straight which allowed his ‘quicker’ rivals to conserve their energy and he was just caught for ‘toe’ after the last. Indeed, it was one of the very rare occasions that Tom Dreaper ever expressed his dissatisfaction to Pat for the ride he gave to one of his horses. However, Flyingbolt ended his season on a high note when carrying the welter burden of 12st-7lbs in the Irish Grand National over three-and-a-quarter miles at Fairyhouse beating Height O’Fashion and the previous year’s winner Splash, giving them 40 lbs and 42 lbs respectively. No other Irish National winner since 1946 has carried 12-7 to victory in this race and it is a feat that is most unlikely to be repeated. Pat Taaffe later reflected on the race in his aforementioned book when he said:
"Flyingbolt won the 1966 Irish National very easily from Arkle’s old rival Height O’Fashion. He settled down beautifully and I was surprised how well he stayed. If top weight worried him, it never showed. He made winning look an easy thing that day. Once again I was reminded that I was alternating between the king and crown prince of chasing. More than ever, it now seemed only a matter of time before he took over from Arkle."
It was yet another remarkable effort and he was now unbeaten in 11 starts over fences. In all, he had won 17 of his 20 races including 3 consecutive wins at the Cheltenham Festival. At only 7 years of age (2 years younger than Arkle) it looked like he had the racing world at his feet. Sadly, things would never be the same again."
Not bad eh ?
As others have said many times before, for me what makes the likes of Arkle and Flyingbolt superior to the modern lot is that they took on all comers regardless of the conditions of the race, handicap or levels. You have to go back to Desert Orchid really to find the last similar type of campaigning although Denman did start off last season in a handicap. Nowadays the big level weights races are the be all and end all to owners and trainers of the best horses which is a shame as there’s something about a high class horse carrying top weight to victory. Maybe the top class modern horse is too fragile or lacks a bit of constitution for want of a better word to have more than a couple of hard races a season.
Finally, why is it that the "best" horses seem to be the ones that tackle the longer distances and to a certain extent chasers rather than hurdlers. I have always been quite confused as to why in effect the slower horses are revered more. It happens on the flat as well, 10-12 furlong horses are looked on as the better class of animal. In the human form of racing, athletics, who would you say was the greatest athlete ? A lot of the time it seems to be the fastest, ie winner of the 100M. At the last Olympics Usain Bolt was lauded as the main star, yet in the Horse Racing world it probably would have been Bekele the 5000 and 10000 winner.
Who is that snoring ?
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