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snoring? not me; I could listen to tales of Arkle and Flyingbolt all day…I must point out that I hated Arkle in those days because he beat my beloved Mill House so, if I rant on about how great Arkle and Flyingbolt were it’s because I read up on them years later and realized how amazing they were or, as Sean Magee put it ‘Mo, who never stopped loving Mill House, but eventually forgave Arkle…’
(Lord) John Oaksey once rode Flyingbolt – in a training gallop. The horse was past his best by then.
He was a fan of Flyingbolt but has always asserted (as did Tom Dreaper and Pat Taaffe ) that Arkle was the better of the two, and that had they met at 3 miles or beyond, then Arkle would have prevailed every time.
Lord Oaksey said that he has never witnessed a better or more resounding performance from any chaser than Arkle’s 1965 Gallaher Gold Cup victory at Sandown. Only a few people own a recording of that race.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
(Lord) John Oaksey once rode Flyingbolt – in a training gallop. The horse was past his best by then.
He was a fan of Flyingbolt but has always asserted (as did Tom Dreaper and Pat Taaffe ) that Arkle was the better of the two, and that had they met at 3 miles or beyond, then Arkle would have prevailed every time.
Lord Oaksey said that he has never witnessed a better or more resounding performance from any chaser than Arkle’s 1965 Gallaher Gold Cup victory at Sandown. Only a few people own a recording of that race.
Grrrr.
Muhammed Mubarak once said his horse Forest Tiger would never be beaten – he never won again.
Why do people take as gospel things trainers / owners / jockeys say? They are often the worst judges there are.
Grrrr.
Muhammed Mubarak once said his horse Forest Tiger would never be beaten – he never won again.
Why do people take as gospel things trainers / owners / jockeys say? They are often the worst judges there are.
Two great examples, I must say.
Muhammed Mubarak/Forest Tiger ( those twin giants of the turf ) as opposed to Tom Dreaper/Arkle. Hmmm? Ok then. You’ve convinced me. 
Keep digging away in your efforts to discredit the supreme champion of champions.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Grrrr.
Muhammed Mubarak once said his horse Forest Tiger would never be beaten – he never won again.
Why do people take as gospel things trainers / owners / jockeys say? They are often the worst judges there are.
Two great examples, I must say.
Muhammed Mubarak/Forest Tiger ( those twin giants of the turf ) as opposed to Tom Dreaper/Arkle. Hmmm? Ok then. You’ve convinced me. Keep digging away in your efforts to discredit the supreme champion of champions.
Would you like me to dig up various Paul Nicholls quotes where he contradicts himself time and again about his own horses?
Surely you’d accept him to be a giant of the turf.I have no intention of "discrediting" Arkle he was a Champion I just prefer to see things through eyes of realism rather than 60’s nostalgia.
Topic is doing my bloody head in now anyway lol.
It’s doing my head in also, but I must ( as is my duty ) defend the great one.
Nostalgia aside, the hard facts are there in front of you Ian, that is, if you care to look.
I do not for one minute believe that everything in the past was better – sporting or otherwise. The Manchester United European Cup winning side of 68, for example, would have struggled against the present team, just as the Rugby Union lads of the 60s and 70s would have been shrugged aside by the ultra fit modern day players.
Horses are different though. I gave an example earlier of how the 1911 Derby winner, Sunstar, recorded the same winning time as New Approach, the 2008 winner.
Not much progression there.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
It’s doing my head in also, but I must ( as is my duty ) defend the great one.
Nostalgia aside, the hard facts are there in front of you Ian, that is, if you care to look.
I do not for one minute believe that everything in the past was better – sporting or otherwise. The Manchester United European Cup winning side of 68, for example, would have struggled against the present team, just as the Rugby Union lads of the 60s and 70s would have been shrugged aside by the ultra fit modern day players.
Horses are different though. I gave an example earlier of how the 1911 Derby winner, Sunstar, recorded the same winning time as New Approach, the 2008 winner.
Not much progression there.
It was good to soft when New Approach won though and probably like a road in 1911. How would you know that by the way?
Anyhow, I give up now. I’ll let others continue the good fight.
have
over-rated Arkle, of course – only that it is possible. Their ratings are as subject to error as anyone else’s. I just don’t see why everyone gets their drawers in a twist about it.
Here Here Grass.
Three questions, don’t think my earlier post was fully understood.
Say there was a three horse race over 3 miles at Kempton:
If Arkle with 1960’s training methods; took on Desert Orchid with 1980’s training methods; and Kauto Star with 2000’s training methods.
Who would win and by how far?I understand the view that people believe Arkle was better in his year, than Desert Orchid in his year and Kauto Star is in his year.
How have training methods effected racehorses?
Mark
Value Is EverythingLord Oaksey said that he has never witnessed a better or more resounding performance from any chaser than Arkle’s 1965 Gallaher Gold Cup victory at Sandown.
I’d agree with that. Watching the race, it was scarcely possible to believe what was happening in front of my eyes. A quite staggering performance.
It’s doing my head in also, but I must ( as is my duty ) defend the great one.
Nostalgia aside, the hard facts are there in front of you Ian, that is, if you care to look.
I do not for one minute believe that everything in the past was better – sporting or otherwise. The Manchester United European Cup winning side of 68, for example, would have struggled against the present team, just as the Rugby Union lads of the 60s and 70s would have been shrugged aside by the ultra fit modern day players.
Horses are different though. I gave an example earlier of how the 1911 Derby winner, Sunstar, recorded the same winning time as New Approach, the 2008 winner.
Not much progression there.
It was good to soft when New Approach won though and probably like a road in 1911. How would you know that by the way?
Anyhow, I give up now. I’ll let others continue the good fight.
You are not getting away that easy
What I would like to know is did you actually see Arkle run?I never saw Golden Miller run and therefore can only guess how good he actually was. I know he won 5 Gold Cups but couldn’t tell you anything about the oposition.
H saw Arkle I saw him V saw him and so did Lord Oaksey all of whom would come up firmly on his side in a debate about the greatest steeplechaser of all time.
As the guys have pointed out the Gallagher Gold Cup was unreal his performance was very similar to that put up by Master Minded when he won his first QMC,. The big difference was not only did he have a horse behind who was once deemed unbeatable by the great Fulke Walwyn he was giving him lumps of weight,
When he was beat in the Hennessy Pat Taffe blamed himself for it but the horse who beat him getting 35lbs Stalbrige Collonist almost won the Gold Cup himself and the horse back in 3rd What a Myth, actually did.
All the evidence points to him being what people say he was. His Timeform rating correct or wrong doesn’t matter a hoot. Those who saw him are the very same people who watched Kauto Star and their opinion has got nothing to do with nostalgia.
Personally wouldn’t put any other chaser ahead of Kauto Star and that includes Flyingbolt whos rating I never bought into. I prefer Akon to Herman’s Hermits any say of the week and being older doesn’t mean we think everything older is better..anything but!!
When he was beat in the Hennessy Pat Taffe blamed himself for it but the horse who beat him getting 35lbs …
I think Pat Taaffe was right to blame himself on that occasion. Not one of his most inspired rides, in my opinion. If you review the film of the race, it appears that Stan Mellor on Stalbridge Colonist really has caught Taaffe on the hop and totally surprised him.
Had he kicked for home earlier on Arkle, as he usually did, then I’m convinced he would have won. He tried to nurse Arkle home that day and all he did ( as it turned out ) was allow a lightly weighted class horse with a good turn of foot the chance to do him on the run in – which Stalbridge Colonist did.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
When he was beat in the Hennessy Pat Taffe blamed himself for it but the horse who beat him getting 35lbs …
I think Pat Taaffe was right to blame himself on that occasion. Not one of his most inspired rides, in my opinion. If you review the film of the race, it appears that Stan Mellor on Stalbridge Colonist really has caught Taaffe on the hop and totally surprised him.
Had he kicked for home earlier on Arkle, as he usually did, then I’m convinced he would have won. He tried to nurse Arkle home that day and all he did ( as it turned out ) was allow a lightly weighted class horse with a good turn of foot the chance to do him on the run in – which Stalbridge Colonist did.
I don’t know, Himself. That master tactition Stan Mellor always looks to me it he stalked Arkle and got a sling shot at him after the lost. It was enough but only just and watch the great one battle all the way to the line.
That Gallagher is imprinted on my mind and I wish the new updated Arkle DVD included it. No other performance in his career matches it as a win.
Look let me make it clear as one of the oldies on the site. Kauto is indeed a great horse, one with a bit of a kink (which I like) some times, but nevertheless a great horse, however, Arkle would have beaten him easily at levels and giving a good bit of weight in a handicap.
I’m pretty sure that Stan is coming to our National preview night; he told us a lot about the race when he beat Arkle [we had a brilliant Arkle evening a couple of years ago], most of which I’ve forgotten, but I think he said that he had a plan formulated right from the start..if there’s any questions about it that anyone would like to ask him I’ll pass them on to him.
How did Arkle jump fences was he as quick and as efficient as Desert Orchid was?
Also would Arkle have beaten the best of his day over 2 miles or was he just a galloping machine? remember Kauto like Dessie had speed to be high class over the minimum trip.
he was a galloping machine that could accelerate; look up his Whitbread win on utube…oh, and he jumped like a stag…..
How did Arkle jump fences was he as quick and as efficient as Desert Orchid was?
Also would Arkle have beaten the best of his day over 2 miles or was he just a galloping machine? remember Kauto like Dessie had speed to be high class over the minimum trip.
Arkle was a totally differnt type of horse than Kauto or Dessie for that matter.
Arkle seemed to have about 4 gears. He would always be hack cantering at the start of his races and Pat Taffe would have problems restraining him especially when he was jumping.
He would go into a fence in say 4th place clear it by fully 2 ft and pass 3 horses in mid air. He was like a gazelle when he put in a big one.
There are some great pics of Arkle and you could almost fit a park bench between the fence and his undercarriage in one particular one.
He was definitely a much flashier jumper and could get much higher at his fences that Dester Orchid but whether he ws actually quicker is hard to say. He had a fantastic pusture at his fences and almost everytime landed running and gained massive amounts of ground doing so.
Of level weights he would start of like Neptune Collonges for the first half mile then he would change up to Denman and then he would take off a mile from home and he still wouldn’t be in top gear. For fun he would quicken again and come up the hill like a greyhound in the same fashion as Master Minded did in the 2008 QMCC but would be getting as much effort behind the saddle as Master Minded did.
Pat Taffe at time had trouble pulling him up. There was no ready to drop like Denman when he won his gold Cup.
It’s all so hard to imagine if you weren’t there. This horse sent tingkes up your spine when you watched him. He was almost always unbackable but they turned out in their millions to watch him.
A note on the Gallagher Gold Cup: Mill House was going so well and had shot 4 lengths clear more that more than a few people including my Uncle were saying Mill House has got him today and for a few moments it actually looked like he may have. Suddenly Pat Taffe shook the reigns at Arkle slightly and got the most amazing response I have ever seen from a race horse. Arkle pricked his ears joned Mill House and then took off like someone had set his tail on fire. He went past Mill House like he was stuck in mud and later his jockey David Nicholson told one reporter "I was going so well I thought there was no way I would be beaten" Everyone who saw the race expected it to be close, everyone except Arkle who had different ideas
. If Fulke Walwyn was devasteted when Arkle beat his beloved Mill House him in the Gold Cup how must he have felt that day.Can anyone imagine Harry Findlays face if he strongly fancied Denman and Kauto Star carrying 12st 7lb gave him 16 lbs and beat him 24 lengths in a common canter? he’d probably never talk again
) as opposed to Tom Dreaper/Arkle. Hmmm? Ok then. You’ve convinced me. 
Surely you’d accept him to be a giant of the turf.
What I would like to know is did you actually see Arkle run?
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