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I suppose I might be include amongst the ‘Defenders Of Arkle’. But the bottom line is it’s very difficult to compare directly horses that ran 40-odd years apart. Arkle moved on top carrying big weights in handicaps because there weren’t that many races for decent prize money for him to go for, and he scared off most of the level weights opposition anyway.
That aside, there’s just a possibility that we may have seen a vintage Gold Cup on the basis that, at the right time within the last 10 years or so, any one of the first four in last Friday’s race could have landed the Cup. Each seemed to me to produce the best they could on the day and, with the understable exception of Denman who came out with honour anyway, were at their peak on the day.
Incidentally, within his own discipline, it is Master Minded that really struck me as worth a comparison with Arkle. His relentless galloping and jumping was at it’s best in last year’s Champion Chase and at Ascot this season. He didn’t seem at his peak last week but saw off his challengers comfortably enough
Rob
Unless Kauto wins a handicap by 20 lengths nobody will be happy and lets face it it proves bugger all and would have to be a cleverly framed handicap with the right horses in it to ever make it stick. 212 is undoubtedly too high, particularly given advances in horse training methods and medicines..
Whilst the homosapien progresses the equines species regresses? I don’t think so..
What was the 100 metre record in 1965?
As I see things at the moment, and having seen all the top 3 mile chasers since Pas Seul, I’d put the freakish Arkle first, without any question, and Flyingbolt second, though not as close behind as Timeform would have you believe.
Third place for me is a battle between Mill House, Desert Orchid, Kauto Star and Denman – I’d give the nod to DO if only for his all round performances.
Close behind come Captain Christy and Pendil, followed by Best Mate.
I’ve only looked at UK and Irish-trained horses for the purposes of this post.
Unless Kauto wins a handicap by 20 lengths nobody will be happy and lets face it it proves bugger all and would have to be a cleverly framed handicap with the right horses in it to ever make it stick. 212 is undoubtedly too high, particularly given advances in horse training methods and medicines..
Whilst the homosapien progresses the equines species regresses? I don’t think so..
What was the 100 metre record in 1965?
Humans and racehorses are very different.
Racehorses haven’t got that much faster in the last 100 years.
For example, Sunstar, the 1911 Derby winner – and who incidentally is a part of Arkle’s family tree, won the Epsom classic in a time of 2m.36 and 4/5 secs.
New Approach won the 2008 Derby in a time of 2m.36.50 secs
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I have been lucky enough to see both Kauto and Dessie and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Dessie was a better horse. Dessie was something very, very special. Yes he lost a few but if Kauto ran as often with as much weight, I can assure you his record would be much worse
See Kauto has been given a rating of 184. Still 3 pound short of Dessie :wink:
Something that Kauto has yet to do which is disappointing rather than a criticism, is to capture the imagination of the public beyond the tracks in the way that Dessie, Red Rum and to a lesser extent Arkle have.
We need to get him onto the front pages (he can’t even get on the front of the sports pages). He is a right character, a good looking horse, a horse with a quirk (or at least his jumping used to be, no denying he jumped like a stag on Friday) and Clive Smith seems a nice chap (never bet the bloke). Don’t have a clue how to rectify that particular situation as he is undoubtedly a fine champion.
The fact that the two best National Hunt horses of the modern era were trained beside each other may seem a coincidence, but it doesn’t alter the facts. Go onto Wikipedia and read Pat Taafe’s account of the 1965 Massey Ferguson Gold Cup at Cheltenham where Flyingbolt won by 15 lengths under 12st6lbs from two class horses getting lumps of weight and believe: the difference between the Kautos and the Denmans and those giants is the concession of weight in handicaps to good horses and still beating them with ease. How anyone can say a beating handed out to inferiors at level weights in a conditions race equates to that I don’t know. Kauto’s Gold Cup performance was the best I’ve seen for years but he’s no Arkle or Flyingbolt.
This ‘coincidence’ argument when it comes to Flyingbolt and Arkle is a patent nonsense.
Isn’t it the case that we have the
three
highest-rated chasers of the day in the same yard right now? Is that merely coincidence??
We do have one comparison in the way that Denman won the Hennessy carrying loads of weight.
In my opinion one of the main reasons Kauto Star isn’t loved in the same way that Dessie was is down to the trainer. Obviously the latter being a flamboyant, front running grey wont have hurt either
David Elsworth was not completely dominating the sport when Dessie was around and some people tend to get sick of hearing of winner after winner for the same trainer.
Lee
Also Dessies owners shared him with us in a way thay made us feel as if we owned him ourselves [and, yes, I was in his fan club and went to visit him every year at Ab Kettleby, where we all used to walk around with the Gold Cup until one year they realized that for insurance purposes it wasn’t such a good idea!]…..Richard Burridge eulogized over his horse in a way that only a writer could…Dessie just loved his job; he loved galloping and jumping and winning and you could sense that when you saw him; it wasn’t just that he was grey, it was that being grey suited him in a way that no other colour could.
This ‘coincidence’ argument when it comes to Flyingbolt and Arkle is a patent nonsense.
Isn’t it the case that we have the
three
highest-rated chasers of the day in the same yard right now? Is that merely coincidence??
No, I think you’ll find that your comparison is where the nonsense lies. The difference today is that they are not collectively rated nearly a stone and a half clear of any other chaser that’s drawn breath in the last 50 years. Apples and oranges.
Here is what you said, Mr Frisk:
"The problem with this statement is that according to Timeform, there was indeed another one very much like him – only 2lb inferior in fact – who was living in the next-door box at precisely the same time. Quite a coincidence, no?"
The only reference you make to "coincidence" is regarding Arkle and Flyingbolt being in the same yard. Your subsequent discussion about ratings differntial makes no mention of "coincidence".
Perhaps you could go to the trouble of making yourself more clear next time?
Yes, and the statement I was quoting said that Arkle was "a complete freak" and that "there will never be another one like him", which puts my response into a historical context too.
The point is that Timeform’s ratings would have you believe that there has indeed never been another one even vaguely like him, apart from the one living next door at the time. In fact, that goes beyond mere co-incidence and into the realm of fairies at the bottom of the garden.
It is the ratings that Arkle and Flyingbolt were given, and their complete separation from everything else, that is the point. I’ll up the ante from earlier, and say that is probably more like a 10 million to one chance, with the alternative being that Timeform’s jumps handicappers in the 1960s, who had only been doing the job a few years, got carried away with all the (quite justified) adulation. Which do you think is more likely?
Whether the Timeform figure is a true reflection of Arkle’s overall ablity or not is immaterial. The fact remains that he is the best chaser ever to have to set hooves on a race course.
How do you think he would have treated the likes of Snoopy Loopy, Monet’s Garden or L’Ami ?
With utter contempt, that’s how. He wouldn’t have been out of a hack canter to beat them.
Arkle met defeat four times in the twenty six chases he competed in. Once, to Mill House in the Hennessey (1963), when just out of novice company. In 1964, he ran in the Massey-Ferguson at Cheltenham (2m 5f) when third behind Flying Wild (10st 6lbs) and Bueno Notte ( 10 12Ilbs) – btn sh hd and a length, carrying 12 st 10 Ibs (
). Many good judges believe this was his finest performance.His other two defeats took place in 1966. Conceding 35Ilbs to a very good horse, Stalbridge Colonist, in the Hennessy. He was beaten half a length.
What A Myth was third.His other defeat, in the King George at Kempton, was to Dormant, a horse he had thrased out of sight in previous races.
On this occasion, Arkle had to carry the burden of 12st 7Ibs, whereas Dormant carried only 11st. The others carried either 11st 7Ibs and under. Amazing to think that he was still only beaten a length considering he had raced with a fractured bone for most of the race.Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
). Many good judges believe this was his finest performance.
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