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Paul… is he? That will be a treat :)
Lincoln… didnt KS run rather well in a not bad race at haydock a couple of weeks ago?
Its strange though how some horses get knocked for not (or expected to do)doing it off top weight in handicaps (Best Mate and now KS) but others (Brave Inca Moscow flyer) were not….
Now Moscow flyer had nothing to prove to anyone (as did arguably Best Mate too) but why should it then be expected of KS?
Aidan…
True
If a the big three from that amazing race a couple of years ago were running then I suspect KS wouldnt be….
Don’t think anyone has suggested his 2m form makes him a 176 horse, however his official rating he ran off at Aintree (167) was achieved at around 2m which puts only Ashelybrook within spitting distance of him. Ashleybrook obviously goes well fresh but it is a big ask to get a horse ready for a race like the Tingle Creek after a year off. The question is whether Kauto Star has improved this season for the step up in trip or not. Personally I don’t think we saw enough of him at 2m to suggest he was exposed at it.
Clivex, Moscow didn’t need to run in handicaps to prove his worth because he showed in Tingle Creeks and Champion Chases that he was better than horses that had won in handicaps off 174 and 176.
Clivex,
For one I was a huge fan of Best Mate, also was the winner of 3 Gold Cups as MF was the winner of 2 Champion chases. KS has not achieved anything in my book yet, my point if you care to listen, is that he has yet to compete in a championship race at a fast pace on good ground and get a clear round.
I will only be convinced of the greatness of this horse when he achieves this…..
JohnJ.
Quote: from Lincoln Duncan on 3:53 pm on Nov. 28, 2006[br]It’s a very big question, as he’s been rated on his 3m form. He is unquestionably not a 176 horse on his 2m form.<br>
He’s a ~175 horse on his 2m4f form this year though and his ~165 form in the Tingle Creek was last year. More than likely he’s improved this season IMO, only a 6yo after all.
Terrific decision to run on Saturday.
Betting considerations/clinical analysis/circuitous debate apart it would be wonderful to see him crowned ‘champion’ at 2m and 3m.
JJD
Why was the Betfair Chase not a Championship race? Why was the Tingle Creek not a Championship race? Neither race was run at a crawl or in bog/road like conditions. This rubbish about a horse not having achieved anything until it’s done it at the Festival is so tedious.
DJ,
There is a huge difference in running in a Gold Cup or Champion chase than in a Betfair Chase, Lexus Chase or whatever. The pace is quicker, and horses who are not fluent over their fences will get caught out. Beef or Salmon is a prime example of this, hailed a wonder horse winning slowly run races in Ireland then coming a cropper Gold Cups. Cheltenham is not the be all and end all, but year in year out does prove who the best chaser is on these Islands.
JohnJ
Any other examples than the much maligned Beef or Salmon? Beef or Salmon won’t ever win a Gold Cup but it doesn’t stop him being one of the best staying chasers in Britain and Ireland over the last 20 years. That however id a different argument.
DJ…
That was my point :) No reason why a champion should be expected to carry big weights in handicaps to prove…what exactly?
although it was wonderful when the likes of Desert Orchid (and very nearly Rooster)did so…
I had always tended towards the view that the KGV was usually won by the best chaser around. The lexus has perhaps taken the gloss off that, but past records are certainly more consistent with the quality of winners than the Gold cup (although I feel that has shifted last 4/5 years)
I tend towards the JJ view here that the ultimate test is in the fierce cauldron of the GC (or KGV some years).
The only "flaw" which exposed and can be forgiven in a genuine staying chaser is a left/right bias (Desert orchid) and perhaps would also not knock One Man and Wayward lad for just not quite staying
Despite AB’s break, & KS’s improvement in the last year, who would you rather be on for a winning margin last year of 2 lengths;
KS at 4/7<br>AB at 16/1
Surely the 16/1 (bigger on BF?) represents massive value for 2 lengths?
Thank you Clivex, I totally agree. The GC and KGV seperates the men from the boys.
JohnJ.
Theres a first jj :)
Surely the 16/1 (bigger on BF?) represents massive value for 2 lengths?
No. After a year off with injury against a clear improver whos fit?
Quote: from johnjdonoghue on 5:09 pm on Nov. 28, 2006[br]Thank you Clivex, I totally agree. The GC and KGV seperates the men from the boys.
JohnJ.<br>
YEAH…THE MEN WHO DONT LIKE SOFT GROUND :) :) <br>Sorry but how can you call horses that then dont like it soft…or many who dont even like it softish Men. Real champs are robust and and it takes more then one race a year to prove this.
On the KS debate. For an inexperienced horse, I think his jumping is fine.
SHL
I am pretty confident KS will win this on Saturday, just think it is an odd decision given the quotes from the trainer immeadiately after the Betfair and given the horses smooth passage over 2m4f plus this season.
If it all goes wrong though what can the racing public say? Nicholls is giving them what they want. Fair play to him.
I don’t think Paul Nicholls is doing Kauto Star any favours. No idea what he’s been doing with Desert Quest either who needs a big field, strong pace and good ground.
It’s one thing keeping handicappers on the go but the better horses he could do with being more careful with if he wants them to hit peaks in the big races.
Just my opinion.
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