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:lol:
I think that just sums it up UM. Like so many who agree with you – you’re stuck in the past.Best races (form-wise) are any distance between 1m to 1m4f these days
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……To believe the best milers should test their stamina by going up in trip, yet middle-distance horses should not test their speed by coming down – just indicates your bias UM.
…It’s not just my bias, everyone has that bias, if they care to admit it.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that, if you had the choice between a trainer telling you that your horse can win the St James’s Palace Stakes, or that he can win the Derby, that you wouldn’t mind either?…. that they are equal in importance? that the form can measure up whichever…? nonsense. Form and ratings are academic, it’s winning these big middle distance races that matter, ultimately.
Everyone favours middle distance, especially breeders. Coolmore do sprinters and milers do they? only if they’re unlucky that their charge doesn’t stay, and don’t tell me Frankel’s connections were not more than a little disappointed in finding the horse couldn’t settle as a 3 yr old and they had to stick to a mile.
It’s not old fashioned, it’s the way it is, has been for a long time, and will remain that way. It’s how flat racing is run, it’s the default, and if it isn’t, then why are they bothering to try Frankel over further?.. there would be no need, but that’s just it, there IS a need.
It might matter to you UM but it doesnt matter to me and it didnt matter to the thousands that saw him yesterday and it doesnt matter to the huge majority of the racing press, professionals and public who are happy just enjoying this wonderful horse rather than moaning about him CONSTANTLY as you do.
Like it or not you are living in the time of a legend. One that will be remembered for centuries and talked about long after we all pushing up daisies regardless of whether he won over 8f, 10f or 12f.
Regardless of your opinion there is nothing you can do about the immortality of this most exceptional racehorse.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I’m not moaning, just stating it as I see it, and I think other’s do too if they care to say – you may think it moaning, if you wish.
…I love the horse, and Cecil, all the ladies love him – I’m so terribly sorry to hear of his continuing health issues, it’s very sad to me.
I want to see Frankel in the ‘Arc, a race where I don’t think even he would be able to chase away all opposition.
It wouldn’t be the first time a top miler ran in the race. The question is would he win or get beat half a length by a better stayer….?
It’s dreaming, as I know he won’t run, don’t you?I feel a bit sorry for you Jonibake really. The next generation, unexposed, will not be so enamoured and will have their own champs to glorify – probably middle distance – and I can see you forever being on the defensive as you get older.
People have already forgotten the last wonder horse Sea The Stars – forgotten as in he hardly gets a mention these days…. and that was not so long ago. People quickly forget and move on.You are like a man possessed with a beautiful woman, and I really hope and I mean this, that you don’t find out that eventually, she couldn’t cook.
…you would have my sympathies..
ugly mare,i sure havent forgotten SEA THE STARS,a horse that won the 2,000 guineas,derby,eclipse,international,irish champion and arc in won one glorious season.
to datec FRANKEL has won just one of these great races.none of us are bias or living in the past at all. thats just stupid.
i may seem bias that 1m2f-1m4f horses are in some way better than milers, but i am certainly not. i just want frankel to run over further, to see how really good he is. like i said, i want to see the horse have a proper race, and if it takes me to say it, yes, he wont get one over a mile. and believe it or not, there isn’t that much that will give excelebration a run for his money over a mile. that is precisely what i am trying to say, so where you do you get the idea i have slated excelebration as "no good"?
it should be in the nature of a trainer to step their horse up in trip, providing the right pedigree. we all know frankel will get a further trip, so why is cecil dragging the time out? like andyod said on here previously, he is out of galileo and into his 4yo career, so why is he still at a mile?
camelot stepped up in trip after the guineas, but could have easily campaigned his way through his career unbeaten at a mile.
Regarding Camelot – it would have been one heck of a training feat regarding placement of the horse for him to be campaigned unbeaten at a mile. That would involve him avoiding all the top mile races that Frankel was in !
I’m very much with Joe Mercer on this: Frankel will get 10 furlongs standing on his head but he has no chance of staying a mile and a half.
Frankel will have burned off the opposition in the Juddmonte by the time he approaches those extra two and a bit furlongs he will encounter for the first time on the Knavesmire. He will turn that race into a procession against proven middle distance performers. You can bet on it.
Frankel has already proved beyond any doubt that he is a horse of the very highest calibre, and if his connections decided to retire him tomorrow, you can rest assured that his star will burn bright for the next hundred years and beyond.
Winning an Arc or being able to win a top group 1 race does not a great horse make.
Rail Link, San San, Gold River, Topyo, Tony Bin, Carroll House, Ivanjica, Marienbard ? You get my drift ? Not exactly household names and by no means world beaters.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Frankel will have burned off the opposition in the Juddmonte by the time he approaches those extra two and a bit furlongs he will encounter for the first time on the Knavesmire. He will turn that race into a procession against proven middle distance performers. You can bet on it.
Have you taken Ladbrokes kind offer of 1/4 H?
Is that a value price at which to buy easy money Team TRF?
Around the town here plenty of seasoned old hacks will tell you that a mile is the perfect and true test of a thoroughbred flat race horse, and I agree with them. A top class miler requires a degree of stamina and plenty of speed.
And before anyone levels the obvious at me; most of the ‘seasoned hacks’ are from out of the town, most typically from the north, so there is no parochial bias in that belief.
I’m not in any way intending to demean a fantastic horse in the shape of Sea The Stars. Nobody could crib his versatility. However ask yourselves an honest question: Was STS the best horse we’ve ever seen at any of the distances he won at? I don’t believe he was. IMO he wouldn’t have got close enough to Frankel over a mile to have troubled him.
In Sir Henry’s horse we have arguably the best miler in the history of the sport, almost certainly the best ever in living memory. Most of those same seasoned hacks I mentioned earlier (At least those who’s allegiance isn’t bogged in the mire of the past.) agree that he is.
To be the very best there has been at a particular discipline is surely the truest indictment of greatness.
Is that a value price at which to buy easy money Team TRF?
I’m a simple soul,Drone – easily pleased. Value to me is any outlay which garners any profit at all. Small mercies and all that.
I never bet ante-post ( only NRNB these days ) but I am hoping against hope that a more generous 2/7 may be available nearer the day.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
I’m not moaning, just stating it as I see it, and I think other’s do too if they care to say – you may think it moaning, if you wish.
…I love the horse, and Cecil, all the ladies love him – I’m so terribly sorry to hear of his continuing health issues, it’s very sad to me.
I want to see Frankel in the ‘Arc, a race where I don’t think even he would be able to chase away all opposition.
It wouldn’t be the first time a top miler ran in the race. The question is would he win or get beat half a length by a better stayer….?
It’s dreaming, as I know he won’t run, don’t you?I feel a bit sorry for you Jonibake really. The next generation, unexposed, will not be so enamoured and will have their own champs to glorify – probably middle distance – and I can see you forever being on the defensive as you get older.
People have already forgotten the last wonder horse Sea The Stars – forgotten as in he hardly gets a mention these days…. and that was not so long ago. People quickly forget and move on.You are like a man possessed with a beautiful woman, and I really hope and I mean this, that you don’t find out that eventually, she couldn’t cook.
…you would have my sympathies..
I love that last paragraph UM!! You are probably right and my wife (who luckily CAN cook) would defintely agree with you. So would my twin children for whom "Frankel" was one of the first words they learnt! (although unfortunately they pronounced it "Wankel" to begin with!)Of course new Champs will come but I still brim up at the sight of Red Rum winning his third, marvel at Shergar streaking clear down the Epsom straight, listen fervently as my dad regales stories of The Brigadier and Grundy (his fav horse). These horses don’t need defending. They have their place in history and no one will take it away.
Don’t feel sorry for ME UM. Feel sorry for my wife.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I agree that we should appreciate Frankel for being such a supremely talented racehorse, but I can also understand the frustration from those who provoke such a heated response.
Frankel is very much a unique talent, and such a talent should be allocated targets that allow him to demonstrate just how unique he is. I can fully understand the decision not to compete in the sprinting division, which was the opinion of some enthusiasts last season. After all, the one element that threatened to destroy Frankel was his inability to truly settle, and common sense was duly relayed to the masses that asking such a character to combine sprinting over six furlongs and settling over ten was a gamble not worth taking.
There is, however, a difference between such a gamble and a calculated risk – that is, to evaluate all the available evidence and reach a conclusion. One can not fault connections for risking their superstar under certain circumstances, but they can be criticised for being too rigid in their approach to an animal with unlimited potential.
Frankel’s performance at Royal Ascot was beyond superlatives. It was a fitting climax to his eight furlong adventure – the perfect performance for the perfect occasion. With the Frankel Tour well documented before the start of the flat season, now was the time to replace the current schedule and show some spontaneity because, in one question, “How was he ever going to surpass that sublime destruction?”
If Royal Ascot was the perfect occasion to bring the curtain down on this chapter of his career, then The Eclipse was arguably the right race to commence another. For many, it is the most celebrated ten furlong event in the country, named after an unbeaten horse who dominated his rivals in such a fashion that the phrase ‘Eclipse first and the rest nowhere’ still echoes to this day. It was the right race, at the right time for Frankel (first and the rest nowhere).
Not to fear, The Phenomenal Frankel will be released over ten furlongs at a racecourse near your soon. If he decimates his rivals in a similar manner, still full of running at the finish without breaking sweat, will connections throw caution to wind and change their original, somewhat rigid schedule? Introduce Frankel to modern aviation and take him beyond these shores to an adoring International public?
Will connections dare to compete the greatest horse on the planet in the greatest middle distance race on the global fixture list, the Arc?
You can guarantee that a stunning performance at York will leave potential rivals running scared at Ascot come Champions’ Day, but the Longchamp showpiece is such a coveted event that a star-studded cast is almost certain, but will it be worth the ‘calculated risk‘?
Of course, the great unknown would be Frankel’s ability to stay twelve furlongs, but if he puts in a strong effort over ten furlongs at York then that would alleviate some of the doubt. After all, we have all been told that seeing is believing, but what does other visual evidence and pedigree analysis support?
From a mechanical perspective, Frankel’s big stride is a weapon designed for stamina rather than speed because stride frequency deteriorates quicker than stride length. Therefore, such a huge stride conserves energy. When the pace of a race increases, Frankel can cover the same amount of ground in one stride where others will take two. Frankel doesn’t just kill his rivals with speed, he sucks the energy out of them.
A big stride enables Frankel to maintain his effort for an extended period of time, but it is fluidity and efficiency that allows him to reach such a high speed. I have never before seen a horse blessed with a stride that compliments both speed and stamina like Frankel’s – it is a movement of sheer mechanical perfection that will be just as effective over five furlongs as it would be over three miles, and is an exception to the often mistaken and flawed rule of ‘too much speed to stay’.
On breeding, he has every chance of staying further than ten furlongs. We would normally look at the form of a close relative when deciding if a horse will stay a certain trip – in this case Noble Mission – but we have apparently decided to dispose with such a system when it comes to Frankel. Ah, that old chestnut ’too much speed to stay’.
There is talk of Frankel’s pedigree being placed in the top drawer of every hotel bedside cabinet, such is the common knowledge of its contents, but here’s my analysis of it, anyway…
Once upon a time there was a mare called Rainbow Lake, who won the Lancashire Oaks. She produced a colt to Sadler’s Wells called Powerscourt, who would one day go on to win the Great Voltigeur over twelve furlongs. Sadler’s Well was something of a playboy and soon left without so much as a goodbye. The following year, she met a former sprinter / miler called Danehill. After a brief fling they produced a foal and called her Kind, who was very much a daddy’s girl and possessed a great deal of speed. She was quite different to some of Danehill’s more celebrated future sons, including Dylan Thomas and Duke Of Marmalade, who were both Group One winners over twelve furlongs. Nevertheless, Kind was successful in her own right and was soon looking for a partner of her own. She gave birth to a handsome young colt whom she named Bullet Train. There was something very familiar about the father, but she couldn’t quite put her hoof on it – her mother had warned her of his ilk, though. He left fairly abruptly, so Kind was looking for another gentleman to settle down with. She met a very successful stallion called Galileo – a supreme middle distance champion who had already passed on his brilliance to a number of his siblings. They became an item immediately and their chemistry was electric. It was not long after that Kind gave birth to her second son – a foal so impressive that Galileo whispered in his ear “You will be my greatest son, Frankel”.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but when you look at Kind’s pedigree now it becomes something of a surprise that she didn’t stay further. She had speed to burn, but her sire was capable of producing progeny with plenty of stamina. Galileo was a champion over ten and twelve furlongs, from a top middle distance pedigree, but he is capable of producing progeny with plenty of speed.
The perfect match? Maybe. Frankel is bred to stay middle distances, but it is the mechanics of his movement that give him such phenomenal speed – it was an innate gift and is not something that you can breed into a thoroughbred. Don’t let this fool you into believing he would not stay.
If Frankel wins the International, and sectionals once again suggest that he is travelling at five furlong pace inside the final furlong, surely the Arc must come under consideration. It will be his last hurrah and why not allow him this most celebrated of platforms to show us just how good he is? Drive him out fully, give him a few cracks of the whip and let him run as fast as he can. It could well be the greatest performance we will ever see on a racecourse, and Frankel deserves to be associated with such an event.
What a brilliant post! The best I’ve read on here to date!
*sigh*
I’ve really no idea what you’re getting at. I did not imply or dodge anything of the sort, what on earth is the matter with you…?
All I said was this:-”We are only hoping he [
that’s Frankel
] goes up another 2f, that’s a quarter extra from what he usually races over. I’m sure Bolt could manage 125 metres or is that asking too much..?”
[meaning 125 instead of 100] – that ok now?….my goodness…
lol ! I have to give up with some people, sorry…..
Given no 125 metres discipline exists, and he competes at the 200m and holds the world records, why have we quoted 125M and what is its relevance. Frankel has never run over further, Bolt is a world record holder at 200M.
So either the comment must be read as Bolt could handle ANOTHER 125M, or the comment makes absolutely no logical sense at all.
I suggest whilst you give up on some people, you also work on your ability to convey conherent relevant points.
…..
The top middle distance horses that we currently have, do not need to drop back in distance – they have already made it. Frankel has to go up. That is the key. Middle distance is still king despite anything Frankel or Black Caviar for that matter have achieved, however impressively they’ve performed. Ultimately, a miler or a sprinter is something of a failure – they fail to stay.
What are the world’s top races today?
Europe – Derby-Eclipse-KingGeorge-Arc
U.S. -Derby-Belmont-BC Classic
Aust – Cox Plate
Dubai – World Cup
…and so on….When Frankel goes to stud what type of mares do you think he will be mated with? Sprinters? Milers or those more stoutly bred. What type of races do you think they will want to win with his offspring? The St James’s Palace Stakes, QEII, Sussex, July Cup? Good though they are, I think they will be hoping more for any one or other I’ve listed above.
If you owned Frankel as a 2yo, winning easily over a mile, what race or races would you be hoping he would win at 3? The St James’s Palace Stakes? Sussex? or again any of those listed above.
Don’t tell me you wouldn’t be thinking to yourself ”I’ve got the Derby winner on my hands” …. unless Mr Cecil had already informed you otherwise, that is what you would be hoping – no getting away from it.Youre’ stuck in dislusions of the past, not undersandin that percieved prestige and credibility are two different things.
The King George had some medicore renewals recently. The Derby is hit or miss ; given it’s for 3 years and is invariably never a deep race. The Eclipse had two very poor renewals during Twice Over’s Sandown reign.
The stupidity that any particular race is always better/of higher quality than another race is mindblowing. A race is determined by the horses that competes in it, not it’s relatively distant past.
The perception you have of horse racing and the hierarcy of it’s graded races does not align consistently with the form shown in these races.
*sigh*
I’ve really no idea what you’re getting at. I did not imply or dodge anything of the sort, what on earth is the matter with you…?
All I said was this:-”We are only hoping he [
that’s Frankel
] goes up another 2f, that’s a quarter extra from what he usually races over. I’m sure Bolt could manage 125 metres or is that asking too much..?”
[meaning 125 instead of 100] – that ok now?….my goodness…
lol ! I have to give up with some people, sorry…..
Given no 125 metres discipline exists, and he competes at the 200m and holds the world records, why have we quoted 125M and what is its relevance. Frankel has never run over further, Bolt is a world record holder at 200M.
So either the comment must be read as Bolt could handle ANOTHER 125M, or the comment makes absolutely no logical sense at all.
I suggest whilst you give up on some people, you also work on your ability to convey conherent relevant points.
…..
I’m sure I’m the last person she wants to fight her corner, but I understood her point to mean that asking Frankel to step up by two furlongs (25% of a mile.) was akin to asking Mr Bolt to run 25 metres more (Or 25% of a 100 metres.) I’m guessing she didn’t realise he excels at 200 metres anyway but was making the point that it isn’t a huge increase in the distance that either the horse or the Jamaican are most famous for running?
^nicely
conherent
…….
Don’t feel sorry for ME UM. Feel sorry for my wife.
…our partners suffer our obsessions Joni, but we must put up with theirs too. It’s a 2 way thing isn’t it…?
perhaps your wife is currently engrossed in ‘Fifty Shades of Grey’…? everyone else seems to be…
….you might be surprised to know that you are not alone in having a kind of hero worship of a racehorse. I have been there, seen it and done it. Walked the course they ran over, had the owners colours made into a tee shirt [somehow I can’t see you in Abdulla’s], and would not hear a word of criticism of the one I adored….
that’s empathy, Joni…. hope you appreciate…
I am pleased your wife can cook – there is nothing worse than chicken nuggets from Asda…
After all, the one element that threatened to destroy Frankel was his inability to truly settle,
Will connections dare to compete the greatest horse on the planet in the greatest middle distance race on the global fixture list, the Arc?
You can guarantee that a stunning performance at York will leave potential rivals running scared at Ascot come Champions’ Day, but the Longchamp showpiece is such a coveted event that a star-studded cast is almost certain, but will it be worth the ‘calculated risk‘?
Of course, the great unknown would be Frankel’s ability to stay twelve furlongs, but if he puts in a strong effort over ten furlongs at York then that would alleviate some of the doubt. After all, we have all been told that seeing is believing, but what does other visual evidence and pedigree analysis support?
From a mechanical perspective, Frankel’s big stride is a weapon designed for stamina rather than speed because stride frequency deteriorates quicker than stride length. Therefore, such a huge stride conserves energy. When the pace of a race increases, Frankel can cover the same amount of ground in one stride where others will take two. Frankel doesn’t just kill his rivals with speed, he sucks the energy out of them.
A big stride enables Frankel to maintain his effort for an extended period of time, but it is fluidity and efficiency that allows him to reach such a high speed. I have never before seen a horse blessed with a stride that compliments both speed and stamina like Frankel’s – it is a movement of sheer mechanical perfection that will be just as effective over five furlongs as it would be over three miles, and is an exception to the often mistaken and flawed rule of ‘too much speed to stay’.
On breeding, he has every chance of staying further than ten furlongs. We would normally look at the form of a close relative when deciding if a horse will stay a certain trip – in this case Noble Mission – but we have apparently decided to dispose with such a system when it comes to Frankel. Ah, that old chestnut ’too much speed to stay’.
There is talk of Frankel’s pedigree being placed in the top drawer of every hotel bedside cabinet, such is the common knowledge of its contents, but here’s my analysis of it, anyway…
Once upon a time there was a mare called Rainbow Lake, who won the Lancashire Oaks. She produced a colt to Sadler’s Wells called Powerscourt, who would one day go on to win the Great Voltigeur over twelve furlongs. Sadler’s Well was something of a playboy and soon left without so much as a goodbye. The following year, she met a former sprinter / miler called Danehill. After a brief fling they produced a foal and called her Kind, who was very much a daddy’s girl and possessed a great deal of speed. She was quite different to some of Danehill’s more celebrated future sons, including Dylan Thomas and Duke Of Marmalade, who were both Group One winners over twelve furlongs. Nevertheless, Kind was successful in her own right and was soon looking for a partner of her own. She gave birth to a handsome young colt whom she named Bullet Train. There was something very familiar about the father, but she couldn’t quite put her hoof on it – her mother had warned her of his ilk, though. He left fairly abruptly, so Kind was looking for another gentleman to settle down with. She met a very successful stallion called Galileo – a supreme middle distance champion who had already passed on his brilliance to a number of his siblings. They became an item immediately and their chemistry was electric. It was not long after that Kind gave birth to her second son – a foal so impressive that Galileo whispered in his ear “You will be my greatest son, Frankel”.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but when you look at Kind’s pedigree now it becomes something of a surprise that she didn’t stay further. She had speed to burn, but her sire was capable of producing progeny with plenty of stamina. Galileo was a champion over ten and twelve furlongs, from a top middle distance pedigree, but he is capable of producing progeny with plenty of speed.
The perfect match? Maybe. Frankel is bred to stay middle distances, but it is the mechanics of his movement that give him such phenomenal speed – it was an innate gift and is not something that you can breed into a thoroughbred. Don’t let this fool you into believing he would not stay.
If Frankel wins the International, and sectionals once again suggest that he is travelling at five furlong pace inside the final furlong, surely the Arc must come under consideration. It will be his last hurrah and why not allow him this most celebrated of platforms to show us just how good he is? Drive him out fully, give him a few cracks of the whip and let him run as fast as he can. It could well be the greatest performance we will ever see on a racecourse, and Frankel deserves to be associated with such an event.
Kind did not just have "speed to burn", she improved her form when put back to sprinting.
When a horse has both middle-distance (Galileo, Rainbow Lake, Powerscourt) and sprinter-miler (Danehill) and sprinting (Kind) in a horse’s close relations – Then he can not be said to be "bred to get middle-distances" Bos. Yes, any mating may have a better than 50% chance of doing so AT BIRTH. But nowhere near "bred" to do so. With such animals it is often temperament that will tell connections/punters which distance is favoured.
The "old chestnut" of "too much speed to stay" can be wrong or it can be worth listening to.
e.g. If a horse shows enough speed to win the 2000 Guineas, by settling well and staying on – like Sea The Stars, Camelot or Nashwan – and has a pedigree suggesting at least 1m2f will suit – Then he’ll probably get the Derby distance.
If however, the horse is an enthusiastic galloper, who needs to be physically settled (either out the back or up front) at A MILE and wins the 2000 Guineas by sheer speed – Then it is very wise to listen to that "old chesnut".Since that day at Newmarket in May 2011 Frankel has learnt to settle far better at A MILE. So there’s now every chance he’ll get 1m2f. (Although the betting is unlikely to take the (still) possibility of him not staying in to account). If there is a strong pace and one or two stamina laden 130+ horses in the field… who knows.
Or, it may even be disadvantageous to Frankel if it is a slow pace. To get Frankel to stay 1m2f connections might think their best chance is to settle him behind 3 or 4 horses. However, by going a slow 1m2f pace there’s a far bigger chance of Frankel pulling, and therefore not having as much left for his finishing kick. Settling Frankel with a pacemaker in a fairly well-run mile is one thing – settling him in a slowly run 1m2f race where his pacemaker is ignored, quite another.Far from the famous long stride being certain to suit longer distances, it may not work as efficiently. In such circumstances going one stride to everyone elses 1.5 strides may cause a problem WHEN IN BEHIND HORSES and going at a pace that does not suit the horse.
To compare Noble Mission and Frankel is frankelly ridiculous. Noble Mission is lazy and lazy horses will get further than their pedigree suggests. Frankel is the ultimate in enthusiasm and probably won’t truly get as far as his pedigree suggests.
There is absolutely NO chance of Frankel being risked at 1m4f, and nor should there be.
Value Is Everything^nicely
conherent
…….
Don’t feel sorry for ME UM. Feel sorry for my wife.
…our partners suffer our obsessions Joni, but we must put up with theirs too. It’s a 2 way thing isn’t it…?
perhaps your wife is currently engrossed in ‘Fifty Shades of Grey’…? everyone else seems to be…
….you might be surprised to know that you are not alone in having a kind of hero worship of a racehorse. I have been there, seen it and done it. Walked the course they ran over, had the owners colours made into a tee shirt [somehow I can’t see you in Abdulla’s], and would not hear a word of criticism of the one I adored….
that’s empathy, Joni…. hope you appreciate…
I am pleased your wife can cook – there is nothing worse than chicken nuggets from Asda…
If you were a man UM, there’d be calls of "sexist".
Why should it be up to Joni’s wife? Is it not equally up to Joni to "cook"? May be enabling wifey to read said book and Joni to feel the benifits later.Value Is Everything
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