- This topic has 105 replies, 27 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 9 months ago by
.
- Posts
…one would hope so…. from my experience food and sex keeps a man happy…I sell dozens of these books and have yet to sell one to a man… presumably they grab it later to read on the bog….. sound right?
^nicely
conherent
…….
Don’t feel sorry for ME UM. Feel sorry for my wife.
…our partners suffer our obsessions Joni, but we must put up with theirs too. It’s a 2 way thing isn’t it…?
perhaps your wife is currently engrossed in ‘Fifty Shades of Grey’…? everyone else seems to be…
….you might be surprised to know that you are not alone in having a kind of hero worship of a racehorse. I have been there, seen it and done it. Walked the course they ran over, had the owners colours made into a tee shirt [somehow I can’t see you in Abdulla’s], and would not hear a word of criticism of the one I adored….
that’s empathy, Joni…. hope you appreciate…
I am pleased your wife can cook – there is nothing worse than chicken nuggets from Asda…
Ah yes this Fifty Shades of Grey – I keep hearing about it. Perhaps it will help spice things up as my talk of Frankel doesnt seem to do the job.
I showed your post to my wife last night and she laughed out loud – which is rare for her. "If you only knew the half of it" she said!
BTW Midsummer Sun runs today in the 2pm at Goodwood. This is the handicapper that Frankel couldnt get past last week. 20-1 – get on!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Ginge,
Frankel’s attributes are not just a result of his pedigree, it is the mechanics of his stride that make him so special and could quite easily allow him to be effective over any distance.
A stride such as his has, and will not, be passed on to future generations. It is something truly innate. Stride frequency may deteriorate quicker than speed length, but a big stride does not guarantee that a horse will be a stayer, but in Frankel’s case he has stamina influences on both sides of his pedigree.
His breeding and mechanics compliment both speed and stamina.
Most horses with a big stride are quite cumbersome – Denman and Zenyatta are notable examples in recent years – but Frankel’s stride is so quick that it would easily be an asset over shorter distances.
Horses are primarily designed for endurance. Compare their stride to that of a cheetah. Horses maintain a more even trajectory and this allows them to conserve energy. If you analyse Frankel’s stride to the vast majority of horses you see on a daily basis – even those at the highest level – you don’t need to be an expert to see that his stride is far more fluent, which indicates that over any distance, in an gait, Frankel conserves more energy than his rivals.
Once again, this does not mean that a horse will defy it’s pedigree, but Frankel’s breeding and mechanics support both speed and stamina.
He is truly a remarkable speciman and, to repeat what I said in my original post, his stride is mechanical perfection. Human engineering couldn’t have designed it any better.
I agree that he wasn’t ready to compete over ten and twelve furlongs last year because he was just too enthustiastic. A horse may have all the physical benefits in the world but, like a human athlete, if he isn’t mentally equipped then you’re only going to achieve a fraction of your full potential. I have observed a far more relaxed, stronger individual this term and, as I suggested in my original post, his performance at York should tell us if he is capable of staying further.
If – and that is the key word – he is still surging powerfully through the final furlong and showing no signs of stopping in the International then why not consider the Arc? What are connections ‘risking’ exactly?
Connections didn’t know how Secretariat would fare against Sham over twelve furlongs, but they took a ‘risk’ by training him hard and racing him hard. The result was the single greatest performance ever seen on a racecourse.
"The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible". A human quotation, but echoed by Secretariat in the Belmont Stakes.
In life, the most celebrated achievements were worth the risk.
I seriously doubt he’ll be risked over 12 furlongs. You have to think Sir Henry is the best qualified judge.
However, assuming we never see him race over the mile and a half, and assuming he does win comfortably over 10 furlongs, you have to imagine it will create the biggest arguing point in the history of racing for the rest of time.
After all, the one element that threatened to destroy Frankel was his inability to truly settle,
Will connections dare to compete the greatest horse on the planet in the greatest middle distance race on the global fixture list, the Arc?
You can guarantee that a stunning performance at York will leave potential rivals running scared at Ascot come Champions’ Day, but the Longchamp showpiece is such a coveted event that a star-studded cast is almost certain, but will it be worth the ‘calculated risk‘?
Of course, the great unknown would be Frankel’s ability to stay twelve furlongs, but if he puts in a strong effort over ten furlongs at York then that would alleviate some of the doubt. After all, we have all been told that seeing is believing, but what does other visual evidence and pedigree analysis support?
From a mechanical perspective, Frankel’s big stride is a weapon designed for stamina rather than speed because stride frequency deteriorates quicker than stride length. Therefore, such a huge stride conserves energy. When the pace of a race increases, Frankel can cover the same amount of ground in one stride where others will take two. Frankel doesn’t just kill his rivals with speed, he sucks the energy out of them.
A big stride enables Frankel to maintain his effort for an extended period of time, but it is fluidity and efficiency that allows him to reach such a high speed. I have never before seen a horse blessed with a stride that compliments both speed and stamina like Frankel’s – it is a movement of sheer mechanical perfection that will be just as effective over five furlongs as it would be over three miles, and is an exception to the often mistaken and flawed rule of ‘too much speed to stay’.
On breeding, he has every chance of staying further than ten furlongs. We would normally look at the form of a close relative when deciding if a horse will stay a certain trip – in this case Noble Mission – but we have apparently decided to dispose with such a system when it comes to Frankel. Ah, that old chestnut ’too much speed to stay’.
There is talk of Frankel’s pedigree being placed in the top drawer of every hotel bedside cabinet, such is the common knowledge of its contents, but here’s my analysis of it, anyway…
Once upon a time there was a mare called Rainbow Lake, who won the Lancashire Oaks. She produced a colt to Sadler’s Wells called Powerscourt, who would one day go on to win the Great Voltigeur over twelve furlongs. Sadler’s Well was something of a playboy and soon left without so much as a goodbye. The following year, she met a former sprinter / miler called Danehill. After a brief fling they produced a foal and called her Kind, who was very much a daddy’s girl and possessed a great deal of speed. She was quite different to some of Danehill’s more celebrated future sons, including Dylan Thomas and Duke Of Marmalade, who were both Group One winners over twelve furlongs. Nevertheless, Kind was successful in her own right and was soon looking for a partner of her own. She gave birth to a handsome young colt whom she named Bullet Train. There was something very familiar about the father, but she couldn’t quite put her hoof on it – her mother had warned her of his ilk, though. He left fairly abruptly, so Kind was looking for another gentleman to settle down with. She met a very successful stallion called Galileo – a supreme middle distance champion who had already passed on his brilliance to a number of his siblings. They became an item immediately and their chemistry was electric. It was not long after that Kind gave birth to her second son – a foal so impressive that Galileo whispered in his ear “You will be my greatest son, Frankel”.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but when you look at Kind’s pedigree now it becomes something of a surprise that she didn’t stay further. She had speed to burn, but her sire was capable of producing progeny with plenty of stamina. Galileo was a champion over ten and twelve furlongs, from a top middle distance pedigree, but he is capable of producing progeny with plenty of speed.
The perfect match? Maybe. Frankel is bred to stay middle distances, but it is the mechanics of his movement that give him such phenomenal speed – it was an innate gift and is not something that you can breed into a thoroughbred. Don’t let this fool you into believing he would not stay.
If Frankel wins the International, and sectionals once again suggest that he is travelling at five furlong pace inside the final furlong, surely the Arc must come under consideration. It will be his last hurrah and why not allow him this most celebrated of platforms to show us just how good he is? Drive him out fully, give him a few cracks of the whip and let him run as fast as he can. It could well be the greatest performance we will ever see on a racecourse, and Frankel deserves to be associated with such an event.
Kind did not just have "speed to burn", she improved her form when put back to sprinting.
When a horse has both middle-distance (Galileo, Rainbow Lake, Powerscourt) and sprinter-miler (Danehill) and sprinting (Kind) in a horse’s close relations – Then he can not be said to be "bred to get middle-distances" Bos. Yes, any mating may have a better than 50% chance of doing so AT BIRTH. But nowhere near "bred" to do so. With such animals it is often temperament that will tell connections/punters which distance is favoured.
The "old chestnut" of "too much speed to stay" can be wrong or it can be worth listening to.
e.g. If a horse shows enough speed to win the 2000 Guineas, by settling well and staying on – like Sea The Stars, Camelot or Nashwan – and has a pedigree suggesting at least 1m2f will suit – Then he’ll probably get the Derby distance.
If however, the horse is an enthusiastic galloper, who needs to be physically settled (either out the back or up front) at A MILE and wins the 2000 Guineas by sheer speed – Then it is very wise to listen to that "old chesnut".Since that day at Newmarket in May 2011 Frankel has learnt to settle far better at A MILE. So there’s now every chance he’ll get 1m2f. (Although the betting is unlikely to take the (still) possibility of him not staying in to account). If there is a strong pace and one or two stamina laden 130+ horses in the field… who knows.
Or, it may even be disadvantageous to Frankel if it is a slow pace. To get Frankel to stay 1m2f connections might think their best chance is to settle him behind 3 or 4 horses. However, by going a slow 1m2f pace there’s a far bigger chance of Frankel pulling, and therefore not having as much left for his finishing kick. Settling Frankel with a pacemaker in a fairly well-run mile is one thing – settling him in a slowly run 1m2f race where his pacemaker is ignored, quite another.Far from the famous long stride being certain to suit longer distances, it may not work as efficiently. In such circumstances going one stride to everyone elses 1.5 strides may cause a problem WHEN IN BEHIND HORSES and going at a pace that does not suit the horse.
To compare Noble Mission and Frankel is frankelly ridiculous. Noble Mission is lazy and lazy horses will get further than their pedigree suggests. Frankel is the ultimate in enthusiasm and probably won’t truly get as far as his pedigree suggests.
There is absolutely NO chance of Frankel being risked at 1m4f, and nor should there be.
Agree in part but he should have been in the Eclipse. He should have run at 10 furlongs already. He simply has to run in the Juddmonte, and then i’d take him to the Breeders Cup.
But that’s me.
Ginge,
Frankel’s attributes are not just a result of his pedigree, it is the mechanics of his stride that make him so special and could quite easily allow him to be effective over any distance.
A stride such as his has, and will not, be passed on to future generations. It is something truly innate. Stride frequency may deteriorate quicker than speed length, but a big stride does not guarantee that a horse will be a stayer, but in Frankel’s case he has stamina influences on both sides of his pedigree.
His breeding and mechanics compliment both speed and stamina.
Most horses with a big stride are quite cumbersome – Denman and Zenyatta are notable examples in recent years – but Frankel’s stride is so quick that it would easily be an asset over shorter distances.
Horses are primarily designed for endurance. Compare their stride to that of a cheetah. Horses maintain a more even trajectory and this allows them to conserve energy. If you analyse Frankel’s stride to the vast majority of horses you see on a daily basis – even those at the highest level – you don’t need to be an expert to see that his stride is far more fluent, which indicates that over any distance, in an gait, Frankel conserves more energy than his rivals.
Once again, this does not mean that a horse will defy it’s pedigree, but Frankel’s breeding and mechanics support both speed and stamina.
He is truly a remarkable speciman and, to repeat what I said in my original post, his stride is mechanical perfection. Human engineering couldn’t have designed it any better.
I agree that he wasn’t ready to compete over ten and twelve furlongs last year because he was just too enthustiastic. A horse may have all the physical benefits in the world but, like a human athlete, if he isn’t mentally equipped then you’re only going to achieve a fraction of your full potential. I have observed a far more relaxed, stronger individual this term and, as I suggested in my original post, his performance at York should tell us if he is capable of staying further.
If – and that is the key word – he is still surging powerfully through the final furlong and showing no signs of stopping in the International then why not consider the Arc? What are connections ‘risking’ exactly?
Connections didn’t know how Secretariat would fare against Sham over twelve furlongs, but they took a ‘risk’ by training him hard and racing him hard. The result was the single greatest performance ever seen on a racecourse.
"The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible". A human quotation, but echoed by Secretariat in the Belmont Stakes.
In life, the most celebrated achievements were worth the risk.
Bos,
Frankel’s stride is the best I have ever seen. Said as much after the Guineas. Beautiful, majestic. It’s exceptionaonally long and fluent. Length of stride would not be a concern atany
trip as long as he’s not
BEHIND HORSES
. And this is my point… In all of Frankel’s races so far (at a
mile
, going
normal
or
fast
mile pace
) he’s had room to do whatever he wants, with only
one or two
rivals in front, is able to go left or right. However, usually horses (with a
stamina doubt
) going
UP
in trip are
held up BEHIND HORSES
, to help them
settle
. When a
long striding
horse is in
amongst
rivals and going at a
slower pace
than is comfortable (a
slow 1m4f
pace is
considerably slower
than a normal or fast
mile pace
)… He can
NOT
use his
full stride
, ie with horses
surrounding
him using
their
normal stride pattern it
restricts
Frankel’s stride…
If Frankel were in the clear at 12 furlongs, yes he could use that wonderful stride, but Frankel won’t stay the trip if not restrained and to have a good chance of restraining him he needs to be
behind horses
.
It would be wrong to even try Frankel at 12 furlongs.
Value Is Everything:) …one would hope so…. from my experience food and sex keeps a man happy…
Agree there UM, but it’s not so good if it’s both at the same time!
Agree there UM, but it’s not so good if it’s both at the same time!
Speak for yourself!
Value Is EverythingSir Henry does not know.Nobody knows.There is only one way to know,to find out and we all know what that is.So lets find out and get on with it.
In his recent work they have mixed things up a bit. AS UM told us, last week they worked him over a mile with Midsummer Sun and he had to sit in behind all the way. Teaching him to settle and wait in behind for longer and at the slower pace he is likely to face.
Of course Bullet Train will be there to ensure a nice even gallop at York but one would have thought the only possible way to get him beat is to try and draw the sting out of him by making it a test. So Bullet Train might not get to lead.
Cirrhus Des Aigles has been known to make his own running and if Coolmore DO decide to run St Nic you can be sure they will try and play to his strengths by setting a decent lick.
Clearly those tactics would also help Frankel settle but it might just test that stamina which is of course just about the only unknown quantity.
I am fascinated to see what turns up. Looking at the entries there are three what I would call Category A Group 1 horses left in (apart from Frankel) – CDA, St Nic and Nathaniel.
CDA is an intended runner and he was the best 10f horse last year but will be coming back off quite a long lay off. Aiden is now telling us that St Nic is a top of the ground 10f horse but will he wait for an easier assignment in the Irish Champion? Johnny G has said he would like to take on Frankel again but why pay 20,000 Euros to suppliment for the IC if you have no intention of running? He may just wait for Champions Day if he takes him on at all (surely Nathaniel HAS to run in the Arc!)
I wouldnt be surprised if Coolmore are empty handed for the race leaving CDA and a few horses like Sri Putra, Planteur and Dancing Rain running for place money (I include Dancing Rain only because it will be her first run of the season and her trainer has actually said that himself). If Coolmore DO run something it might just be Imperial Monarch almost to test the water.
All will be revealed soon anyway!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Sir Henry does not know.Nobody knows.There is only one way to know,to find out and we all know what that is.So lets find out and get on with it.
And nobody "knows" whether Black Caviar will stay 2m of the Melbourne Cup, but she isn’t going to be there.
Say Frankel did turn up in the Arc and gets beat by the Triple Crown winner Camelot…
We’d have all the idiots telling us "told you so! Frankel was never the horse people made him out to be". We’d have all the "12f Rules OK" team making out the vastly inferior Camelot to be the better horse.
Frankel would be rank in the Arc. Not a chance he’ll line up.
Value Is Everything…overall form isn’t that important if you can manage to win the very top race in Europe, the one everyone wants to win – if they have the horse to do so.
Past winners of the Arc don’t always measure up, form wise, as highlighted by Himself earlier. Doesn’t matter – they turned up, they won it.
It’s the greatest race available for turf horses in the Northern Hemisphere.Similarly, I would personally rather have a 100-1 Norton’s Coin in the Gold Cup, than a Florida Pearl in the King George. Rather Desert Orchid’s defeat of Yahoo, than his 5 at Kempton.
A Grand National winner than a 2 mile champion chase. A Dawn Run’s Gold Cup rather than failed chaser Big Bucks….
and so on…Team 12f rules OK…
Or, it may even be disadvantageous to Frankel if it is a slow pace. To get Frankel to stay 1m2f connections might think their best chance is to settle him behind 3 or 4 horses. However, by going a slow 1m2f pace there’s a far bigger chance of Frankel pulling, and therefore not having as much left for his finishing kick. Settling Frankel with a pacemaker in a fairly well-run mile is one thing – settling him in a slowly run 1m2f race where his pacemaker is ignored, quite another.
Far from the famous long stride being certain to suit longer distances, it may not work as efficiently. In such circumstances going one stride to everyone elses 1.5 strides may cause a problem WHEN IN BEHIND HORSES and going at a pace that does not suit the horse.
I’d get the impression that trainer and jockey would take such potential problems into consideration prior to the race. Should a slow pace try to hinder Frankel’s massive stride, then surely the jockey would switch and allow the horse to dictate a pace that’d suit him without using excessive energy. By doing this, it’d be the other horses that would suddenly be playing catch up. And with a horse of Frankel’s power and energy and ready to push the fire button, he’d have them precariously off the bridle.
After Frankel won the St James Palace Stakes, I thought that he didn’t stand a cat in hell’s chance of getting 12 furlongs due to his problem in settling. Sir Henry Cecil has gradually ironed out this problem (apart from maybe a couple of small creases) and has done a remarkable job to turn him into the far more relaxed horse we love today.
Watching the effortless way in which this talented beast moved in the Sussex on Wednesday, the abundance of energy he had at his diposal and the manner of ease of how he won, he’ll get 10 furlongs with no problem.
Listening to Joe Mercer’s comments about Frankel easily getting 10 furlongs and then, almost in the same breath, stating that he hasn’t a chance of getting 12 seemed a bit one extreme to another to me. Should Frankel retire unbeaten at the end of the season, there will be questions being asked whether he’d have got 12 furlongs after all.
Bos,
Frankel’s stride is the best I have ever seen. Said as much after the Guineas. Beautiful, majestic. It’s exceptionaonally long and fluent. Length of stride would not be a concern atany
trip as long as he’s not
BEHIND HORSES
. And this is my point… In all of Frankel’s races so far (at a
mile
, going
normal
or
fast
mile pace
) he’s had room to do whatever he wants, with only
one or two
rivals in front, is able to go left or right. However, usually horses (with a
stamina doubt
) going
UP
in trip are
held up BEHIND HORSES
, to help them
settle
. When a
long striding
horse is in
amongst
rivals and going at a
slower pace
than is comfortable (a
slow 1m4f
pace is
considerably slower
than a normal or fast
mile pace
)… He can
NOT
use his
full stride
, ie with horses
surrounding
him using
their
normal stride pattern it
restricts
Frankel’s stride…
If Frankel were in the clear at 12 furlongs, yes he could use that wonderful stride, but Frankel won’t stay the trip if not restrained and to have a good chance of restraining him he needs to be
behind horses
.
It would be wrong to even try Frankel at 12 furlongs.
Sitting in behind horses will not make any difference, Ginge.
His huge stride is just one component that helps to conserve energy. His fluent and ‘light’ stride also reduce the force exerted when striking the ground.
During the period when each foot is in contact with the ground, the length of a stride (at gallop) is determined by how much each foot overlaps with the other. The less of an overlap, the more each leg can contribute to the stride.
Look at the YouTube clip of Frankel’s racecourse gallop at Newmarket. Notice the lack of overlap even at a slower speed, and the exaggerated forward thrust of the shoulder and ‘cat-like‘ action. His stride produces an even flatter trajectory, reducing the up and down movement, thus conserving more energy. This will be effective at any speed during the gallop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-iy10awBDc
Going back to the Belmont Stakes, an interesting observation was that Sham’s overlap percentage was twenty-four, Secretariat’s was less than nineteen percentage.
People can marvel at his stride, but you have to analyse every aspect of it to truly appreciate it. It is, quite literally, perfect. Even though I have stated that both his pedigree and mechanics support speed and stamina, it is my opinion that his stride is the primary reason for his phenomenal speed, but his pedigree will enable him to stay further than a mile and I don’t think two miles would be a problem, let alone twelve furlongs (he did win over a mile as a 2YO, remember).
Richard Hughes has stated that he could win the July Cup and an Arc, and I can certainly understand where he is coming from.
I just want to ask those of you who don’t feel that the Arc would suit on the grounds of stamina: ‘If Frankel is recording the same fractions inside the final two furlongs over a mile and a quarter as he does over eight, would you not be tempted by the Arc – the greatest all-age middle distance race in the world?’
I know it’s incredibly unlikely that connections will go for the Arc, even though there is every possibility that York will give us reason to believe that he could stay the trip. I’m not saying that Frankel has to win an Arc to be regarded as the best we have seen, but if the evidence suggests that he has the potential to stay twelve furlongs then why not aim the greatest horse on the planet at arguably the most coveted race in europe?
I do fear that romance is disappearing from the sport sometimes.
Doesn’t matter now, he’s about to retire so you’ll never know other than that he was a very good miler.
If Camelot takes the triple crown unbeaten will they risk him and his record as an older horse?
Time to find the next one maybe and move on.
Sorry? Frankel is a long way off retiring yet. The plan is to step him up to 10 Furlongs and blow this just a miler out of the water.
Right now I;d say there’s more chance of Frankel running in the Arc than Camelot if he wins the Triple Crown……..straight to the sheds or some poxy Irish race to make sure he stays unbeaten
from the Sporting Life:-
Cecil said: "He will finish off his racing career at Ascot on Champions Day in the Champion Stakes or Queen Elizabeth II Stakes.
"Whether, with the gap between York and Ascot, he contests the Prix du Moulin is questionable. Maybe it will be beneficial leading up to Ascot but we will see. Frankel will tell me what course I should take."
…any idea that he will run in the Arc should be dismissed.
2 races in the next 10 weeks or so will be it.
…one would hope so…. from my experience food and sex keeps a man happy…
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.