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Which "TOP HORSES" then?
Godolphin top miler – Farhh.
Hannon top miler – Canford Cliffs
Coolmore top miler – Excellebration
Stoute top miler – ????
OTHERS – ????I give in, which? Is it some sort of secret quiz you are running.
I’ll make it simple. Quote the sentence where I used the term ‘Top horses’ in the post you disagreed with.
In the years preceding Frankel’s participation in the race the fields numbered 8 and 7. Bigger fields no?
excelebration and canford cliffs are the only decent horses he has beaten. it would have been interesting to see frankel race with canford cliffs as many times as he has excelebration though.
cant understand the overhype of farhh as well. so far, he is a good handicapper at the most, proven.
in regards to stating the top horses frankel hasnt raced against, that is quite difficult at a mile, because there is nothing outstanding, other than frankel himself. other than excelebration, i can off the top only think of golden lilac and dabirsim. however, if he was to race over 1m2f/1m4f, this is what i mean by decent opposition:
cirrus des aigles
nathaniel
so you think
sea moon
st nicholas abbey
camelot
beauty parlour
imperial monarch
dancing rain
snow fairy
danedream….please excuse me if i have missed anything out of the ordinary, but this is pretty much as narrowed down as i can make it. that is the field we want frankel to race against, not todays joke!
Must be a very "Good handicapper" to get held off half a length in the Eclipse by a King George winner.
Who mentioned anything about 400M – I didn’t.
The exact quote is " I’m sure Bolt could manage 125 metres or is that asking too much..?". Given he competes at 100/200, the next event up is the 400M. You implied it, so don’t try and dodge it. If you don’t know about something, then restrain from making uneducated assumptions.
*sigh*
I’ve really no idea what you’re getting at. I did not imply or dodge anything of the sort, what on earth is the matter with you…?
All I said was this:-”We are only hoping he [
that’s Frankel
] goes up another 2f, that’s a quarter extra from what he usually races over. I’m sure Bolt could manage 125 metres or is that asking too much..?”
[meaning 125 instead of 100] – that ok now?….my goodness…
lol ! I have to give up with some people, sorry…..
excelebration and canford cliffs are the only decent horses he has beaten. it would have been interesting to see frankel race with canford cliffs as many times as he has excelebration though.
cant understand the overhype of farhh as well. so far, he is a good handicapper at the most, proven.
in regards to stating the top horses frankel hasnt raced against, that is quite difficult at a mile, because there is nothing outstanding, other than frankel himself. other than excelebration, i can off the top only think of golden lilac and dabirsim. however, if he was to race over 1m2f/1m4f, this is what i mean by decent opposition:
cirrus des aigles
nathaniel
so you think
sea moon
st nicholas abbey
camelot
beauty parlour
imperial monarch
dancing rain
snow fairy
danedream….please excuse me if i have missed anything out of the ordinary, but this is pretty much as narrowed down as i can make it. that is the field we want frankel to race against, not todays joke!
Joke? Frankel is the first horse in history to win back to back Sussex Stakes and he just equaled Rock of Gibralter’s record for Group 1’s on the trot.
Farhh ran Nathaniel to 1/2 length who went on to run 2nd to the Arc De Triomph winner Danedream.
Frankel has made Farhh look like a selling plater something both So You Think and Nathaniel failed to do.
Let’s imagine for one minute Frankel was a 12 furlong horse and had the same abilities over that trip as he does over a mile, do you think for one minute any of those above would get anywhere near him?
Not one off them travels like he does and none of them have his explosive turn of foot, so unless they tied his legs together they would get exactly the same dose of medicine as Farhh, Canford Cliffs and Excelebration got.
I’d put Canford Cliffs as a racehorse on a par with any of the above and Frankel the baby made him look ordinary. Frankel the adult would have laughed at him and he was a brilliant horse.
Maybe he’s not the greatest horse of all time but pound for pound he’s a street length ahead of any of the above.
excelebration and canford cliffs are the only decent horses he has beaten. it would have been interesting to see frankel race with canford cliffs as many times as he has excelebration though.
cant understand the overhype of farhh as well. so far, he is a good handicapper at the most, proven.
in regards to stating the top horses frankel hasnt raced against, that is quite difficult at a mile, because there is nothing outstanding, other than frankel himself. other than excelebration, i can off the top only think of golden lilac and dabirsim. however, if he was to race over 1m2f/1m4f, this is what i mean by decent opposition:
cirrus des aigles
nathaniel
so you think
sea moon
st nicholas abbey
camelot
beauty parlour
imperial monarch
dancing rain
snow fairy
danedream….please excuse me if i have missed anything out of the ordinary, but this is pretty much as narrowed down as i can make it. that is the field we want frankel to race against, not todays joke!
You seem to be a particularly misguided soul, my friend.
Any of these individuals and their connections have already had the chance to meet him, granted over a mile.
AOB knows that his charges from within your list have no chance from his sighting missions with Excelebration. Therefore he will try with an army of pacemakers to try and stretch Frankels stamina over 10 furlongs , probably with SNA as he comes to the end of his career..
Camelot will not appear against him, as if, Frankel stays, he will simply annhialate him, and after AOB quotes, it would ruin his charges stud value.
They now get their chance over 10 furlongs.
Exactly what are the ratings of these horses again ?excelebration and canford cliffs are the only decent horses he has beaten. it would have been interesting to see frankel race with canford cliffs as many times as he has excelebration though.
cant understand the overhype of farhh as well. so far, he is a good handicapper at the most, proven.
in regards to stating the top horses frankel hasnt raced against, that is quite difficult at a mile, because there is nothing outstanding, other than frankel himself. other than excelebration, i can off the top only think of golden lilac and dabirsim. however, if he was to race over 1m2f/1m4f, this is what i mean by decent opposition:
cirrus des aigles
nathaniel
so you think
sea moon
st nicholas abbey
camelot
beauty parlour
imperial monarch
dancing rain
snow fairy
danedream….please excuse me if i have missed anything out of the ordinary, but this is pretty much as narrowed down as i can make it. that is the field we want frankel to race against, not todays joke!
You seem to be a particularly misguided soul, my friend.
Any of these individuals and their connections have already had the chance to meet him, granted over a mile.
AOB knows that his charges from within your list have no chance from his sighting missions with Excelebration. Therefore he will try with an army of pacemakers to try and stretch Frankels stamina over 10 furlongs , probably with SNA as he comes to the end of his career..
Camelot will not appear against him, as if, Frankel stays, he will simply annhialate him, and after AOB quotes, it would ruin his charges stud value.
They now get their chance over 10 furlongs.
Exactly what are the ratings of these horses again ?You will also find my friend if you go back to my original post of 13 August 2010, or a reputable form guide that Frankel has already toyed with Nathaniel in a maiden.
If you use a form line through through Farrh using Nathaniel what would you predict if they met ?i am not in the slightest misguided, neither do i want to appear like i want frankel to lose. im just merely stating my opinion on why he should be running over further, and the horses i think that are worthy contenders.
as regarding nathaniel, i tend to try and not pay much attention to maidens. nathaniel is a mile and a half horse, and was stepped up a run after that.
and talking about aob, so what if he trys the same old tactics of using loads of pacemakers to broaden SNA’s chances?
all of those horses in my list are 1m2f-1m4f, and challenging frankel over a mile has never been on their list. over further, thats a different kettle of fish, which is precisely my point.
excelebration and canford cliffs are the only decent horses he has beaten. it would have been interesting to see frankel race with canford cliffs as many times as he has excelebration though.
cant understand the overhype of farhh as well. so far, he is a good handicapper at the most, proven.
in regards to stating the top horses frankel hasnt raced against, that is quite difficult at a mile, because there is nothing outstanding, other than frankel himself. other than excelebration, i can off the top only think of golden lilac and dabirsim. however, if he was to race over 1m2f/1m4f, this is what i mean by decent opposition:
cirrus des aigles
nathaniel
so you think
sea moon
st nicholas abbey
camelot
beauty parlour
imperial monarch
dancing rain
snow fairy
danedream….please excuse me if i have missed anything out of the ordinary, but this is pretty much as narrowed down as i can make it. that is the field we want frankel to race against, not todays joke!
Your notion that 1m2f/1m4f horses are in some way better than 1m horses is totally outdated. Goldikova, Canford Cliffs and Excelebration are/were some way better than other recent milers. All three at least as good if not better/considerably better than any of your middle-distance brigade. "Considerably better" than at least 50% of those you quote. And…
Frankel demolished Canford Cliffs who’d beaten Goldicova on his previous start. Frankel has also beaten Excelebration out of sight numerous times. If you don’t believe Excelebration is any good, I suggest you look back at what he’d have won if Frankel wasn’t around.
Frankel didn’t just win a classic, he won it by halfway, from horses of similar standard to those finishing only just behind Camelot in his Guineas.Why don’t any of the horses you mention take Frankel on at a mile? Why should it be Frankel who goes up in trip? Why can’t they come down?
Where is the critisism of top middle-distance horses not proving themselves by coming down in trip?
Danedream has won the Arc and King George, I don’t see you slagging her off for not doing it at other trips.
Timeform said of Farhh after the Thirsk Hunt Cup win that it was one of the best performances seen in a handicap for many years. They rated Farhh exactly the same as Carlton House (a Dante winner and Classic placed) prior to them both taking on So You Think in the Eclipse. So you think So You Think and Nathaniel are only a little better than a handicapper?
What does that say about your middle-distance horses Del Boy? 
Timeform ratings:
Frankel 147. Goldikova at very best 133 (+3 lbs 136), Canford Cliffs 133, Excelebration 133…Cirrus Des Aigles 133, Nathaniel 131, So You Think 132, St Nicholas Abbey 130, Camelot 130p, Snow Fairy 128 (+3 lbs 131), Danedream 131 (+3 lbs 134). The others you quote are nowhere near as good. Last 2 named have yet to post a rating as good this season.
Those you quote are 7 horses in two distance ranges, 1m2f and 1m4f. Snow Fairy is yet to appear, So You Think is retired, Danedream, St Nicholas Abbey and Camelot produced their ratings at 1m4f. That leaves just Cirrus Des Aigles and Nathaniel in the 1m2f bracket to Frankel and Excelebration at a mile. When it comes to the number of top class horses at different distances… it is wrong to say there are fewer at a mile.
Value Is EverythingI would love to see Goldikova in her prime against Frankel, but not to be. Maybe she will visit him in a couple of years!
This constant bickering is quite tiresome now. I personally think Yeats was vastly over-rated, his trainer always dodged the 5f Group 1 races. And that Australian filly, how many wins 22? And not one at the true champions distance of 12f.
The top middle distance horses that we currently have, do not need to drop back in distance – they have already made it. Frankel has to go up. That is the key. Middle distance is still king despite anything Frankel or Black Caviar for that matter have achieved, however impressively they’ve performed. Ultimately, a miler or a sprinter is something of a failure – they fail to stay.
What are the world’s top races today?
Europe – Derby-Eclipse-KingGeorge-Arc
U.S. -Derby-Belmont-BC Classic
Aust – Cox Plate
Dubai – World Cup
…and so on….When Frankel goes to stud what type of mares do you think he will be mated with? Sprinters? Milers or those more stoutly bred. What type of races do you think they will want to win with his offspring? The St James’s Palace Stakes, QEII, Sussex, July Cup? Good though they are, I think they will be hoping more for any one or other I’ve listed above.
If you owned Frankel as a 2yo, winning easily over a mile, what race or races would you be hoping he would win at 3? The St James’s Palace Stakes? Sussex? or again any of those listed above.
Don’t tell me you wouldn’t be thinking to yourself ”I’ve got the Derby winner on my hands” …. unless Mr Cecil had already informed you otherwise, that is what you would be hoping – no getting away from it.
I think that just sums it up UM. Like so many who agree with you – you’re stuck in the past.Best races (form-wise) are any distance between 1m to 1m4f these days
. (If antipodean racing is taken in to account it must include sprints too). I’d be equally delighted if I owned a 2000 Guineas winner as I would a Derby winner. In fact, these days a 1m4f group 1 winner is frowned upon in breeding quarters, if he has not also won a 1m2f (or shorter) Group 1. Where as there is no breeding bias against those who made their names solely at a mile. I don’t agree with that anti-stamina / pro-speed bias but it is definitely there.
Those that take their lead from elderly racing journalists are stuck in the past. Reminiscing about those "Glory years" of Derby/Arcs. You’ve got this blind spot in your head about the best horses being middle-distance animals and can’t see around it. To believe the best milers should test their stamina by going up in trip, yet middle-distance horses should not test their speed by coming down – just indicates your bias UM.
Value Is Everythingnone of us are bias or living in the past at all. thats just stupid.
i may seem bias that 1m2f-1m4f horses are in some way better than milers, but i am certainly not. i just want frankel to run over further, to see how really good he is. like i said, i want to see the horse have a proper race, and if it takes me to say it, yes, he wont get one over a mile. and believe it or not, there isn’t that much that will give excelebration a run for his money over a mile. that is precisely what i am trying to say, so where you do you get the idea i have slated excelebration as "no good"?
it should be in the nature of a trainer to step their horse up in trip, providing the right pedigree. we all know frankel will get a further trip, so why is cecil dragging the time out? like andyod said on here previously, he is out of galileo and into his 4yo career, so why is he still at a mile?
camelot stepped up in trip after the guineas, but could have easily campaigned his way through his career unbeaten at a mile.
I agree that we should appreciate Frankel for being such a supremely talented racehorse, but I can also understand the frustration from those who provoke such a heated response.
Frankel is very much a unique talent, and such a talent should be allocated targets that allow him to demonstrate just how unique he is. I can fully understand the decision not to compete in the sprinting division, which was the opinion of some enthusiasts last season. After all, the one element that threatened to destroy Frankel was his inability to truly settle, and common sense was duly relayed to the masses that asking such a character to combine sprinting over six furlongs and settling over ten was a gamble not worth taking.
There is, however, a difference between such a gamble and a calculated risk – that is, to evaluate all the available evidence and reach a conclusion. One can not fault connections for risking their superstar under certain circumstances, but they can be criticised for being too rigid in their approach to an animal with unlimited potential.
Frankel’s performance at Royal Ascot was beyond superlatives. It was a fitting climax to his eight furlong adventure – the perfect performance for the perfect occasion. With the Frankel Tour well documented before the start of the flat season, now was the time to replace the current schedule and show some spontaneity because, in one question, “How was he ever going to surpass that sublime destruction?”
If Royal Ascot was the perfect occasion to bring the curtain down on this chapter of his career, then The Eclipse was arguably the right race to commence another. For many, it is the most celebrated ten furlong event in the country, named after an unbeaten horse who dominated his rivals in such a fashion that the phrase ‘Eclipse first and the rest nowhere’ still echoes to this day. It was the right race, at the right time for Frankel (first and the rest nowhere).
Not to fear, The Phenomenal Frankel will be released over ten furlongs at a racecourse near your soon. If he decimates his rivals in a similar manner, still full of running at the finish without breaking sweat, will connections throw caution to wind and change their original, somewhat rigid schedule? Introduce Frankel to modern aviation and take him beyond these shores to an adoring International public?
Will connections dare to compete the greatest horse on the planet in the greatest middle distance race on the global fixture list, the Arc?
You can guarantee that a stunning performance at York will leave potential rivals running scared at Ascot come Champions’ Day, but the Longchamp showpiece is such a coveted event that a star-studded cast is almost certain, but will it be worth the ‘calculated risk‘?
Of course, the great unknown would be Frankel’s ability to stay twelve furlongs, but if he puts in a strong effort over ten furlongs at York then that would alleviate some of the doubt. After all, we have all been told that seeing is believing, but what does other visual evidence and pedigree analysis support?
From a mechanical perspective, Frankel’s big stride is a weapon designed for stamina rather than speed because stride frequency deteriorates quicker than stride length. Therefore, such a huge stride conserves energy. When the pace of a race increases, Frankel can cover the same amount of ground in one stride where others will take two. Frankel doesn’t just kill his rivals with speed, he sucks the energy out of them.
A big stride enables Frankel to maintain his effort for an extended period of time, but it is fluidity and efficiency that allows him to reach such a high speed. I have never before seen a horse blessed with a stride that compliments both speed and stamina like Frankel’s – it is a movement of sheer mechanical perfection that will be just as effective over five furlongs as it would be over three miles, and is an exception to the often mistaken and flawed rule of ‘too much speed to stay’.
On breeding, he has every chance of staying further than ten furlongs. We would normally look at the form of a close relative when deciding if a horse will stay a certain trip – in this case Noble Mission – but we have apparently decided to dispose with such a system when it comes to Frankel. Ah, that old chestnut ’too much speed to stay’.
There is talk of Frankel’s pedigree being placed in the top drawer of every hotel bedside cabinet, such is the common knowledge of its contents, but here’s my analysis of it, anyway…
Once upon a time there was a mare called Rainbow Lake, who won the Lancashire Oaks. She produced a colt to Sadler’s Wells called Powerscourt, who would one day go on to win the Great Voltigeur over twelve furlongs. Sadler’s Well was something of a playboy and soon left without so much as a goodbye. The following year, she met a former sprinter / miler called Danehill. After a brief fling they produced a foal and called her Kind, who was very much a daddy’s girl and possessed a great deal of speed. She was quite different to some of Danehill’s more celebrated future sons, including Dylan Thomas and Duke Of Marmalade, who were both Group One winners over twelve furlongs. Nevertheless, Kind was successful in her own right and was soon looking for a partner of her own. She gave birth to a handsome young colt whom she named Bullet Train. There was something very familiar about the father, but she couldn’t quite put her hoof on it – her mother had warned her of his ilk, though. He left fairly abruptly, so Kind was looking for another gentleman to settle down with. She met a very successful stallion called Galileo – a supreme middle distance champion who had already passed on his brilliance to a number of his siblings. They became an item immediately and their chemistry was electric. It was not long after that Kind gave birth to her second son – a foal so impressive that Galileo whispered in his ear “You will be my greatest son, Frankel”.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but when you look at Kind’s pedigree now it becomes something of a surprise that she didn’t stay further. She had speed to burn, but her sire was capable of producing progeny with plenty of stamina. Galileo was a champion over ten and twelve furlongs, from a top middle distance pedigree, but he is capable of producing progeny with plenty of speed.
The perfect match? Maybe. Frankel is bred to stay middle distances, but it is the mechanics of his movement that give him such phenomenal speed – it was an innate gift and is not something that you can breed into a thoroughbred. Don’t let this fool you into believing he would not stay.
If Frankel wins the International, and sectionals once again suggest that he is travelling at five furlong pace inside the final furlong, surely the Arc must come under consideration. It will be his last hurrah and why not allow him this most celebrated of platforms to show us just how good he is? Drive him out fully, give him a few cracks of the whip and let him run as fast as he can. It could well be the greatest performance we will ever see on a racecourse, and Frankel deserves to be associated with such an event.
No way should Sir Henry have run him at Sandown when York is a much easier track and worth a lot more money.
You are all cribbing about him not running over 10 furlongs when the intentions to do so have always been there.
He’s won almost 1/2 million for his owner this season by going the easiest route and with the cash in the bank and the rating of a lifetime achieved now it wouldn’t matter if he did lose at York or Newmarket..which of course he wont.
Money isn’t everything especially for an owner like Abdullah. He’s a brilliant racehorse and he’ll get 10f imo so to go to York as it is an easier track than Sandown is neither here nor there.
I’d have run Frankel in the Prince of Wales at Ascot not the Queen Anne for the simple reason we already know he is the best miler in the world by a very long way and winning the Queen Anne and the Sussex told us nothing we didn’t already know. I’d then have gone for the Eclipse or the King George, the Juddmonte, the Champion Stakes or if he got a mile and a half the Arc.
It is only my opinion and my reasoning is just to see how versatile he is against opposition that might even have given him a race and we won’t see his like again in our lifetimes.
Btw what race are you expecting him to run in at Newmarket?
:lol:
I think that just sums it up UM. Like so many who agree with you – you’re stuck in the past.Best races (form-wise) are any distance between 1m to 1m4f these days
.
……To believe the best milers should test their stamina by going up in trip, yet middle-distance horses should not test their speed by coming down – just indicates your bias UM.…It’s not just my bias, everyone has that bias, if they care to admit it.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that, if you had the choice between a trainer telling you that your horse can win the St James’s Palace Stakes, or that he can win the Derby, that you wouldn’t mind either?…. that they are equal in importance? that the form can measure up whichever…? nonsense. Form and ratings are academic, it’s winning these big middle distance races that matter, ultimately.
Everyone favours middle distance, especially breeders. Coolmore do sprinters and milers do they? only if they’re unlucky that their charge doesn’t stay, and don’t tell me Frankel’s connections were not more than a little disappointed in finding the horse couldn’t settle as a 3 yr old and they had to stick to a mile.
It’s not old fashioned, it’s the way it is, has been for a long time, and will remain that way. It’s how flat racing is run, it’s the default, and if it isn’t, then why are they bothering to try Frankel over further?.. there would be no need, but that’s just it, there IS a need.
What does that say about your middle-distance horses Del Boy? 
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