Forum Replies Created
- Posts
They say a slowly run race puts MORE emphasis on stamina…
Hardly. You canter around conserving your energy and use your superior speed to outsprint to the finish line. You turn a 12f race into a 10f race, or even an 8f race with a 4f warm-up canter at the start. A strong pace is a true test of stamina because all 12 of the furlongs are a race.
Any horse can go 12f, hell even a quarter horse, if they go slow enough.Whether DA can stay 12f, we’ll probably never know. What cooked him today had nothing to do with staying ability, it was the fact he wouldn’t settle. Even the best 12f horse in the world would have finished last today had he ran like Dawn Approach.
The DA team tactics were found wanting. They should’ve had a pacemaker of their own in the race. Would DA have won ? We’ll never know now.
You have a horse that has questionable stamina, so you throw in a pacemaker to turn the race into a true test of stamina…… yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
If anything, the slow pace should have worked in the favour of a stamina challenged horse. The problem for DA is that he wouldn’t rate, he was rank as a pig. Most horses can be taught to rate (see Frankel etc), but some can’t. We’ll see what Bolger can do with this fella.The plastic "National" fences used in the US were actually invented in Ireland back in the 70’s for use at Irish Point to Points meet. They are no where near as stiff as a traditional brush chasing fence as seen on British and Irish racecourses, as any one who has stood next to fences on both sides of the Atlantic will tell you.
The Springdale Racecourse in Camden, where they run the Colonial Cup, used to have packed brush fences, have they done away with those and gone plastic too?
The race title does not have "Epsom" in it, that’s all there is to it.
The race title also has the word "Stakes"in it, do you use that word every time you refer to the race? Probably not.
It is acceptable for people to use qualifiers to distinguish races, especially people in other countries that have other Derbies.
Likewise in some cases people use shortened versions…. for example do you use the full "Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe" every time you refer to that race, or just the shortened "the Arc" or "Prix de l’Arc"? I imagine one of the later.
Or they may use a completely different name altogether and superimpose their own version, for example most English speaking people will talk about running a horse in the "French 2000 Guineas" or simply "French Guineas", and not "Poule d’Essai des Poulains"Lot more important things to be bothered about.
Are you sure that horses registered in Weatherby’s Non-TB Register can race under rules? I had a warmblood show jumper on the Non TB Register and he was definitely NOT permitted to race (though he was very quick!)
There is also unlicensed reacing (Flapping) and it is possible they have different rules about whether the horse has to be TB or not.
http://rules.britishhorseracing.com/Ord … 66&depth=3
The relevant section.
8.3 The second condition is that the horse has been accepted for inclusion in
8.3.1 the Stud Book maintained by the Stud Book Authority of Great Britain and Ireland,
8.3.2 a Stud Book approved by the International Stud Book Committee (see Paragraph 8.6),
8.3.3 theNon-Thoroughbred Register
, or
8.3.4 the Autre Que Pur Sang (AQPS Register).To be accepted into the NTR, the rules established by Weatherbys can be found here.
http://www.weatherbys.co.uk/sites/defau … gister.pdfIf your horse was in the NTR, then it was eligible to race.
NSB horses (31/32 TB or more) can race under NH rules. Otherwise all flat/jumps horses must be pure Thoroughbred.
Beyond the BHA, there is racing for other breeds. Arabian racing is also held at various tracks. There is some Standardbred racing (http://www.bhrc.org.uk/), although obviously nowhere near as much as in North America, Australia/NZ and continental Europe. Amateur pony races (including the Shetland Grand National) are fairly common at point-to-points.
That is quite a bit of misinformation.
A horse doesNOT
have to be a TB to race either on the flat or over fences in GB or Ire, in any race from the Derby to the Grand National (there have been numerous winners of the GN that were not TBs, the most recent being Mon Mome in 2008).
The requirement to race is that the horse be registered in either
i) the GSB (which is for TBs), or one of it’s sister studbooks world wide that is a member of the ISBC.
ii) Weatherbys’ NON-THOROUGHBRED REGISTER.
iii) The AQPS register.Obviously both ii) and iii) are
NOT
Thoroughbreds.
The one huge difference is that MV bought most of those horses. Aidan has them chosen for him, and lots of them. M.V almost single handedly put Northern Dancer of the road to being the greatest sire of the 2nd half of the 20th century. He was an amazing judge of horseflesh.
And that’s leaving out the NH game, where MV was Paul Nicholls x 5.
To put it in equine terms..
M.V = Arkle
Aidan = Kauto/Best Mate/Dessie/Red Rum/Mill HouseWhy would you give a stallion prospect the kiss of death by winning the Leger? You can run in the Irish Champion Stakes the same weekend or weekend before over 10f and beat older horses. You also potentially compromise a run in the Arc if the Leger is too close to the Arc.
If anything you’d want to come back to a mile, now that’s a sexy stallion.Leger winner = NH sire for €4k.
8-10f multiple G1 winner = flat sire €20-50k
8-12f multiple G1 winner = flat sire €50k+What "earlier arrangements"?
The Turf course is only accessible when the locals say you can use it. At Churchill Downs that was a window from 9am to 9:30 am or so. The horses, riders and trainers were waiting at the gap in the Main Track to get on the Turf course at 9am on the dot. They were denied permission.
I imagine Messers Stoute, Hannon and Gosden would have had no problem being at the gap waiting to get on the Turf course at 7am, before the rain, if they were permitted to do so. They were following the rules. The rules say you can only use the grass at certain times.Sometimes American races go off turf, and sometimes the turf course is closed to workouts to prevent further damage to the turf. Dirt cannot be cut up or overused (and it isn’t "compromised" by rain,
IF YOU HAVE NEVER GALLOPED ON IT BEFORE AND IT IS FULL OF STANDING WATER THEN IF IS NOT SOMETHING YOU THROW A HORSE WHO HAS NEVER RUN ON IT BEFORE ON TO……. 2 DAYS BEFORE THE BIGGEST RACE IN THEIR LIFE.
What part of that do you not comprehend???????Would you give Mo a half mile blow out on the grass right before the Classic?? Of course you wouldn’t. Only a moron would do that.
This is why most American horses, turf horses included, train primarily on dirt or AW.
No kidding… thanks for proving my point. THEY ARE USED TO IT. It is not a freak out experience for them.
It’s not some ruinous, alien surface.
IF YOU HAVE NEVER WORKED ON IT AND ARE NOT USED TO IT…. then yes it is
ALIEN
. You don’t ask a horse to BLOW OUT on an alien surface TWO DAYS before the biggest race of their lives.
Goldikova trains exclusively on dirt when she preps for the Breeders Cup.
Goldi dooes not WORK on it. She jogs, gallops, stretches her legs on it. Her last fast works are done before she gets on the plane for the US. Were she to work stateside, you can bet she would do it on the GRASS.
The European trainers have access to weather forecasts too.
They don’t have access to the Turf course though. Access is limited to certain times. They don’t call the shots. They are used to training/galloping
when it rains
. If you didn’t work your horses in the rain in northern Europe, you would almost never get to work your horses.
You really need to get a clue.
You don’t take a horse that has never worked on dirt before and all of a sudden two days before a $2m race have it go balls to the walls on a surface they have never galloped on before, not just that, but one that is has just been rained on and has standing water.
Walk on it? yes fine
trot on it? yes fine
gallop on it some? yes fine
Serious workout/last blowout before the big race? No, only a moron would do that.So why did none of the other trainers, including the Europeans (and ex-Brit Graham Motion) have a fit?
Because they didn’t have horses scheduled to work perhaps? You do know the difference between "work" and go out and trot around, canter around, gallop around? All those can be done on the dirt track. You don’t ask a horse to do a 5f or 6f blow-out on a surface they have never worked on before and one that has been compromised by rain and standing water puddles
TWO DAYS BEFORE
a $2m or $3m race. That is not the time to introduce a new experience.
I don’t understand why this is not obvious to you?As for Motion, first off, he has never trained in Britain, so he is not an "ex-Brit" trainer, he is a product of American racing and more importantly his horses like all American horses are used to working on dirt day in and out, many of them, including many of the "turf" horses, have actually raced on dirt. It is not a new experience to them.
Once again, answer this question, if Mo or Grace were asked to do their final work before the Classic on the turf course, are you seriously going to tell me their respective trainers would not freak out?
You really need to get a clue.
You don’t take a horse that has never worked on dirt before and all of a sudden two days before a $2m race have it go balls to the walls on a surface they have never galloped on before, not just that, but one that is has just been rained on and has standing water.
Walk on it? yes fine
trot on it? yes fine
gallop on it some? yes fine
Serious workout/last blowout before the big race? No, only a moron would do that.If Havre, Mo, etc had to do their final piece of fast work before the Classic on the TURF COURSE, do you think Jones/Pletcher/Baffert et al wouldn’t be going mental?
They could have worked something out. Put up the cones and let a couple of horses do their final piece of fast work on the outside of the course. They could have also got their head out of their arses and looked at the weather forecast, or even a quick look at the weather radar in the morning, and seen their was rain on the way at 9am and then put the word out at 7am that anyone that needed to work on the turf course better get out their quick.
Those trainers had every right to be pissed off. If the BC is not going to provide an appropriate surface to work on, then what’s the point of the whole "World" Championships?
I imagine the reason Treasure Beach was used as a pacemaker is exactly because he had a legitimate chance of winning or finishing in the money. When the pacemaker is an obvious no hoper at 150/1, then all the jocks in the race ignore him, because they know he will come back to them. As it panned out, the jockeys were wise to what was going on and ended up ignoring Treasure Beach anyway, (maybe because he was ridden too far in front?). Look at Cape Blanco last year in the Irish CS. They let him get too far away and he didn’t come back. Or Presious Passion in the BC Turf a couple of years back.
In fairness Treasure Beach didn’t beat much in America. However, he is a much higher quality animal that the price he is trading at. If Pour Moi hadn’t been retired he would likely be favourite for this race. Considering TB ran him a head in the Derby, surely 33/1 is a steal of a price for this horse?
He almost got run down by a filly, a good filly, but not a great filly. I really don’t think this horse will win the Arc, esp on soft ground, which will most likely be won by some French 3yo plodder that has been put away all summer.
I say Champion Stakes and then go for the big roll of the dice in the Classic at Churchill Downs. 10f is his optimum distance. The Champion Stakes doesn’t add much extra for his CV at stud, but is a nice prep race for the BC Classic which knocks his stud value out of the ballpark, and this is one of the easiest years to win a Classic on dirt… fuxake, the best two horses of the bunch pointed at it are fillies.SYT is a winner and oozes professionalism.
Surely no one can now doubt he can win the Arc?
He has never won past 10f (ok 10.5f if you want to be pedantic). I wouldn’t bank on him in the Arc, that extra 2f over possible soft or heavy ground…. not convinced he has the stamina for it. He definitely seemed suspect coming up the hill at Ascot.
The place is a death trap, it should be shut down. The sooner the new course is opened and this place turned into a housing estate or a hay field, the better. You come flying down a steep hill into a very tight 180 degree turn, utter madness. You’d have more room to turn in my backyard.
