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Hannon, Gosden and Stoute have a temper tantrum

Home Forums Archive Topics Hannon, Gosden and Stoute have a temper tantrum

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  • #20129
    Miss WoodfordMiss Woodford
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1351

    Racing Post story http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-ra … eederscup/
    A more full account
    http://www.drf.com/news/breeders-cup-eu … e-training

    To quote actual bystanders:

    I was standing there, getting soaked, watching all this go down. Sea Moon, Elusive Kate and Strong Suit paraded up and down the rail about 8 times before the connections gave up. It was like a standoff. Such BS. They’re protecting the grass for tomorrow. It’s very wet today. And the dirt was fine. They’re just being whiners, IMO. I frankly think the Euros get preferential treatment by BC. Stoute was clearly pissed, but Hannon Jr. sounds like an ***. Funny that none of the other Euros had a problem with jogging or galloping on the dirt. O’Brien’s horses did it. Goldikova and others who came out with her did it. Holiday for Kitten and another US turf horse race were also planning to go on the grass, but just went on the dirt when they weren’t allowed on the grass.

    They always work outside dogs. The turf course isn’t very wide to start with. Then they have the temporary rail set several feet off the hedge. And then they put the dogs at least halfway out.

    At the point of the turf works, it really had just started to rain. It rained steadily, and sometimes hard, for the next several hours, but I think they could have easily handled three horses working. BUT, if they allow three of them out there, they’d have to allow others to go out as well. It’s not as if only they were told they couldn’t work.

    And Stoute was the guy who bitched very loudly last year about the course being too hard. I remember hearing that conversation and they watered the course all the could, every day, but Kentucky had had a terrible drought last year which was evident everywhere. Grass in the fanciest pastures was pretty darned brown from what I remember. Everything is green this year.

    These guys have to remember that unlike Europe, Churchill’s meet just started and it’ll go for more than five or six days, or a weekend. Mr. Hannon really sounded off, didn’t he. I didn’t hear the exchange today, but I did hear it last year and the track super couldn’t have been any nicer to Stoute. He truly bent over backwards trying to appease the man and he was having none of it. And then what happens … he tries to get the course a little less hard and a horse slips and falls on the turn and dies.

    That was Rough Sailing in the Juvenile Turf, by the way.

    His horse has been on the turf course the last several days. The forecast all week has been for rain on Thursday although even last night, they were saying "noon" for the rain to start. By early this morning, that had been moved up to 10 a.m., but that was wrong too. It was raining just after 9 a.m. and the turf opens at 9:30 (or when the last horse is off the main track).

    You should see how these folks act when they are here. They wander (in packs) all over the track when horses are on the main track training . That’s the outriders’ territory and they had to tell several individual groups that they were not allowed to cross the track and they fussed about that. There were still horses training. Apparently rules don’t apply to them?

    They were doing that this morning. There was a BC filly coming around the turn and she spooked way out wide when she saw the big pod of people standing clear into the 4 or 5 path.

    I’ve noticed this issue myself; getting in the way of horses while they’re working is absolutely inexcusable.

    So if every other trainer, including the other Europeans, thought the dirt was perfectly fine to work on, why are Hannon and co. trying to get preferential treatment? So You Think is going to have to run on that track, sloppy or not, and of course the precious pony hasn’t had a single gallop on it. Of course now I know which horses to toss on Breeders Cup weekend :).

    #375852
    Miss WoodfordMiss Woodford
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1351

    Oh, and Hannon Jr. whined on Tuesday about Strong Suit’s outside draw, saying that "I could not think of anything worse as you need to be on the pace in American racing, otherwise you are history." Which besides being a gross generalization-the faster pace here makes it

    easier

    for closers-it is a bad sign that he is coming up with excuses for SS’s poor performance before the race is even run.

    #375871
    The Vintner
    Member
    • Total Posts 110

    You really need to get a clue.
    You don’t take a horse that has never worked on dirt before and all of a sudden two days before a $2m race have it go balls to the walls on a surface they have never galloped on before, not just that, but one that is has just been rained on and has standing water.
    Walk on it? yes fine
    trot on it? yes fine
    gallop on it some? yes fine
    Serious workout/last blowout before the big race? No, only a moron would do that.

    If Havre, Mo, etc had to do their final piece of fast work before the Classic on the TURF COURSE, do you think Jones/Pletcher/Baffert et al wouldn’t be going mental?

    They could have worked something out. Put up the cones and let a couple of horses do their final piece of fast work on the outside of the course. They could have also got their head out of their arses and looked at the weather forecast, or even a quick look at the weather radar in the morning, and seen their was rain on the way at 9am and then put the word out at 7am that anyone that needed to work on the turf course better get out their quick.

    Those trainers had every right to be pissed off. If the BC is not going to provide an appropriate surface to work on, then what’s the point of the whole "World" Championships?

    #375876
    Marginal Value
    Participant
    • Total Posts 664

    I am surprised that, in Blue Grass Kentucky of all places, there is no suitable alternative strip of turf to work horses when the turf track at Churchill Downs is considered unfit for galloping.

    I guess the reason that USA trainers do not whine and moan when they travel to Dubai, France and UK is that they are fine ladies and gentlemen who are perfectly happy about the arrangements, conditions and regulations that obtain on their visit. Perhaps there should be a personality test at USA Immigration to weed out the moaners, the ungracious and the whiners. It just would not do to have the possibility of their USA counterparts picking up such temperamental habits.

    As Sir Humphrey Appleby would say:

    I insist that arrangements are planned and executed properly.
    You just moan and whine.
    He is just an ungracious, anarchic trouble-maker

    #375893
    Miss WoodfordMiss Woodford
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1351

    You really need to get a clue.
    You don’t take a horse that has never worked on dirt before and all of a sudden two days before a $2m race have it go balls to the walls on a surface they have never galloped on before, not just that, but one that is has just been rained on and has standing water.
    Walk on it? yes fine
    trot on it? yes fine
    gallop on it some? yes fine
    Serious workout/last blowout before the big race? No, only a moron would do that.

    So why did none of the other trainers, including the Europeans (and ex-Brit Graham Motion) have a fit?

    And can’t they complain somewhere other than in one big group on the racecourse while horses are working? There could’ve been a major accident.

    After the experience with trying to appease Workforce last year, it’s understandable why the Churchill officials are standing their ground.

    #375895
    HurdygurdymanHurdygurdyman
    Member
    • Total Posts 1560

    When things like this happen it leaves a bad taste in the mouth and no racing organisations wants adverse publicity.

    Especially not the Breeders where they are very dependant on international participation without which it’s just another meeting.

    If you don’t at least try to appease your guests you alienate them so only suicidal idiots would stand their ground as you put it.

    Every possible effort should be made to accommodate the 3 stooges as there’s no show without them

    #375898
    Miss WoodfordMiss Woodford
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1351

    When things like this happen it leaves a bad taste in the mouth and no racing organisations wants adverse publicity.

    Especially not the Breeders where they are very dependant on international participation without which it’s just another meeting.

    If you don’t at least try to appease your guests you alienate them so only suicidal idiots would stand their ground as you put it.

    Every possible effort should be made to accommodate the 3 stooges as there’s no show without them

    If they let them in they have to let the other trainers in too, which would have really cut up the turf.

    Elusive Kate, Sea Moon, and Strong Suit are nice horses, and Kate is the deserved favorite in the Juvenile Fillies Turf, but there’s plenty of show without them.

    The dirt was "fast" today. Plenty of horses got in workouts: http://www.equibase.com/static/workout/ … A-EQB.html

    #375899
    The Vintner
    Member
    • Total Posts 110

    You really need to get a clue.
    You don’t take a horse that has never worked on dirt before and all of a sudden two days before a $2m race have it go balls to the walls on a surface they have never galloped on before, not just that, but one that is has just been rained on and has standing water.
    Walk on it? yes fine
    trot on it? yes fine
    gallop on it some? yes fine
    Serious workout/last blowout before the big race? No, only a moron would do that.

    So why did none of the other trainers, including the Europeans (and ex-Brit Graham Motion) have a fit?

    Because they didn’t have horses scheduled to work perhaps? You do know the difference between "work" and go out and trot around, canter around, gallop around? All those can be done on the dirt track. You don’t ask a horse to do a 5f or 6f blow-out on a surface they have never worked on before and one that has been compromised by rain and standing water puddles

    TWO DAYS BEFORE

    a $2m or $3m race. That is not the time to introduce a new experience.
    I don’t understand why this is not obvious to you?

    As for Motion, first off, he has never trained in Britain, so he is not an "ex-Brit" trainer, he is a product of American racing and more importantly his horses like all American horses are used to working on dirt day in and out, many of them, including many of the "turf" horses, have actually raced on dirt. It is not a new experience to them.

    Once again, answer this question, if Mo or Grace were asked to do their final work before the Classic on the turf course, are you seriously going to tell me their respective trainers would not freak out?

    #375900
    Miss WoodfordMiss Woodford
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1351

    You really need to get a clue.
    You don’t take a horse that has never worked on dirt before and all of a sudden two days before a $2m race have it go balls to the walls on a surface they have never galloped on before, not just that, but one that is has just been rained on and has standing water.
    Walk on it? yes fine
    trot on it? yes fine
    gallop on it some? yes fine
    Serious workout/last blowout before the big race? No, only a moron would do that.

    So why did none of the other trainers, including the Europeans (and ex-Brit Graham Motion) have a fit?

    Because they didn’t have horses scheduled to work perhaps? You do know the difference between "work" and go out and trot around, canter around, gallop around? All those can be done on the dirt track. You don’t ask a horse to do a 5f or 6f blow-out on a surface they have never worked on before and one that has been compromised by rain and standing water puddles

    TWO DAYS BEFORE

    a $2m or $3m race. That is not the time to introduce a new experience.
    I don’t understand why this is not obvious to you?

    As for Motion, first off, he has never trained in Britain, so he is not an "ex-Brit" trainer, he is a product of American racing and more importantly his horses like all American horses are used to working on dirt day in and out, many of them, including many of the "turf" horses, have actually raced on dirt. It is not a new experience to them.

    Once again, answer this question, if Mo or Grace were asked to do their final work before the Classic on the turf course, are you seriously going to tell me their respective trainers would not freak out?

    Sometimes American races go off turf, and sometimes the turf course is closed to workouts to prevent further damage to the turf. Dirt cannot be cut up or overused (and it isn’t "compromised" by rain, Churchill’s main track drains very well), so your scenario is a strawman.

    This is why most American horses, turf horses included, train primarily on dirt or AW. It’s not some ruinous, alien surface. Goldikova trains exclusively on dirt when she preps for the Breeders Cup. The European trainers have access to weather forecasts too.

    #375901
    The Vintner
    Member
    • Total Posts 110

    Sometimes American races go off turf, and sometimes the turf course is closed to workouts to prevent further damage to the turf. Dirt cannot be cut up or overused (and it isn’t "compromised" by rain,

    IF YOU HAVE NEVER GALLOPED ON IT BEFORE AND IT IS FULL OF STANDING WATER THEN IF IS NOT SOMETHING YOU THROW A HORSE WHO HAS NEVER RUN ON IT BEFORE ON TO……. 2 DAYS BEFORE THE BIGGEST RACE IN THEIR LIFE.
    What part of that do you not comprehend???????

    Would you give Mo a half mile blow out on the grass right before the Classic?? Of course you wouldn’t. Only a moron would do that.

    This is why most American horses, turf horses included, train primarily on dirt or AW.

    No kidding… thanks for proving my point. THEY ARE USED TO IT. It is not a freak out experience for them.

    It’s not some ruinous, alien surface.

    IF YOU HAVE NEVER WORKED ON IT AND ARE NOT USED TO IT…. then yes it is

    ALIEN

    . You don’t ask a horse to BLOW OUT on an alien surface TWO DAYS before the biggest race of their lives.

    Goldikova trains exclusively on dirt when she preps for the Breeders Cup.

    Goldi dooes not WORK on it. She jogs, gallops, stretches her legs on it. Her last fast works are done before she gets on the plane for the US. Were she to work stateside, you can bet she would do it on the GRASS.

    The European trainers have access to weather forecasts too.

    They don’t have access to the Turf course though. Access is limited to certain times. They don’t call the shots. They are used to training/galloping

    when it rains

    . If you didn’t work your horses in the rain in northern Europe, you would almost never get to work your horses.

    #375966
    Eclipse First
    Member
    • Total Posts 1571

    Perhaps if Messrs Hannon jr and Stoute hadn’t spent so much time at the bar the previous evening they would have been able to make earlier arrangements. It wasn’t as though the deluge came as a surprise.

    Miss W, I would like to point out that some of us this side of the Atlantic do have some ideas of the principle of etiquette, however hard that is to believe.

    #375978
    The Vintner
    Member
    • Total Posts 110

    What "earlier arrangements"?
    The Turf course is only accessible when the locals say you can use it. At Churchill Downs that was a window from 9am to 9:30 am or so. The horses, riders and trainers were waiting at the gap in the Main Track to get on the Turf course at 9am on the dot. They were denied permission.
    I imagine Messers Stoute, Hannon and Gosden would have had no problem being at the gap waiting to get on the Turf course at 7am, before the rain, if they were permitted to do so. They were following the rules. The rules say you can only use the grass at certain times.

    #375989
    Miss WoodfordMiss Woodford
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1351

    @ The Vintner:

    So this doesn’t bode well for So You Think? I mean, he hasn’t had any dirt works or gallops at all. Will he "freak out" at the starting gate of the BC Classic?

    #376020
    Onthesteal
    Member
    • Total Posts 1387

    To be fair, the SYT scenario is obviously a different one, with sink or swim being the ‘plan’.

    #376380
    cormack15cormack15
    Keymaster
    • Total Posts 8783

    If I had a training programme in mind for a race like the BC and travelled around the world to participate I’d be hopeful that the authorities in that location would bend over backwards to accomodate my every requirement or treat me with teh utmost respect and civility when they couldn’t.

    In comparison to the way foreign travellers are treated in the UK it seems the UK trainers were poorly treated on this occasion.

    I see Hannon Jnr has apologised since his outburst but clearly wasn’t only he that was unhappy.

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