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The Racing Post has removed the paywall from their letters page about this case, wanting the letters to have as wide a circulation as possible. No doubt what the balance of letters say about it, especially about the attitude of other jockeys.
https://www.racingpost.com/news/comment/bryony-frost-robbie-dunne-racing-post-readers-have-their-say-on-the-hot-topic/526709As other Forumers have said before on this thread, Dunne admitted to the charge that occurred at Southwell on 3 September 2020, so either with, or without, a “trial” he was still guilty of abuse and harassment aimed at Bryony Frost. The PJA and various jockeys are doing their reputations no favours by continuing to use words like “felt”, and like Aidan Coleman today saying that the jockeys have families and are not nasty people, yet not one of them has said a word about helping Bryony or stopping Robbie. What sort of family man does that make Aidan Coleman? What do they expect the racing public, or the general public, to think of them as a group, and the culture they have created? They surely cannot imagine that anyone has much respect for such a weak group of people.
Should someone contact Aidan and ask him what Bryony replied when he approached her to ask if she needed any help, or told her to contact him if she needed defending from the words and actions of Robbie Dunne?
Quoting GT:
“However, if you were part of that weighing room wouldn’t you feel part of the culture there and therefore be thinking they’re blaming me (at least in part) and calling me / my moral values “rancid”?
…And that may be why the comment has got jockeys backs up.”There may well be many people who think that is absolutely correct, but also think that those jockeys deserve the comment. Most of the time these days we have learned how to be polite, but sometimes polite, soft comments do not transmit the the real thoughts that need to be communicated. It seems that there are a lot of people among the general populace who might have used stronger words about those jockeys. The concept of ethics has been talked, and written, about since the early Greek civilization, and if you just stand around and do nothing when you should intervene to stop a bad thing happening, then you are complicit in the bad thing. If those jockeys moral values allowed them to ingnore what was happening right in front of them for such a long time, then their morals should be called into question. They are the personal owners of their own morals, ethics, values and behaviours, and it is their responsibilty to do right, not wrong. They should stop bleating about outside criticism and examine their own consciences.
Quote from mickeyjp: “Firstly Bryony herself. It’s clear she is dramatically down on rides since last year and while she is doing fantastic with the opportunities she’s getting, is her situation going to improve? “
If you take note of history: “Everything is long term, nothing is settled in a day”, but also look at what is happening in the present: “Social Media will be a force to reckon with, but always follow the money”. I have to ask the question: who is going to ride those horses that owners, who are mostly business people these days, under pressure from the public, say they do not want ridden by the steeplechasing jockeys of the old school, with their “omerta”, “cosy cartel”, “rancid culture”, “it was banter not abuse”, “it was not a threat, it was a figure of speech”. Owners pay jockeys. Public opinion still counts, even if the PJA is not aware of it.
Remember: “Certainly there is a connection between our friends and who we are.”
Yeats – Because you have been on TRF for over 20 years you must know that the Stewards are not allowed to criticise or praise (how lengthy and boring that would be); they give judgement on whether the rules have been broken. And occasionally advise a jockey just how close they came to breaking the rules. Rachael Blackmore was in an almost unique situation: she was the only one in the race who still had a chance of winning it. So she had plenty of time to test if her mount was OK to continue, she did not not need to rush her assessment. Just a bit of advice.
Tank – It is part of the Stewards’ jobs to take account of animal welfare, because it is part of the rules of racing. Although you might disagree with the rules, or disagree about Stewards becoming involved, or think that Stewards only take a view to appease a particular group of people who are interested in racing; but potentially libelling the Stewards about their motivation is hardly likely to be big winner for you. Name calling to try to win an argument usually abates at about eight years of age, any older than that most people realise it is just a distraction tactic when they do not have a logical or rational point to make.
Gingertipster : “Yes, we all want everyone who’s “out of order dealt with”, but these leaks might instead actually mean the opposite. ie Leaking could make a fair hearing impossible and therefore they won’t have any choice but to drop the case. Am sure the leaker had good intentions but doing so may yet backfire, resulting in Frost unable to get justice.”
A Sherlock Holmes alternative interpretation is: with Robbie Dunne’s lawyers and his professional body (PJA) both now calling for the BHA to abandon the investigation because of leaks to the press, surely it is unlikely that a Bryony Frost supporter is the leaker.
The PJA has been around since 1969, so their self-congratulatery statement that they have a code of conduct for jockeys beggars the question why it took fifty-two years to write one. The answer to the fifty-two year question has to be the Dunne/Frost altercation, and because previous incidents had been efficiently brushed under the carpet. Their self-congratulatery acceptance that, in the weighing room, senior jockeys educate junior jockeys, joins the BHA in accepting the idea that the jockeys are self-governing in that environment, and is nothing to be proud of. This stance is untenable, especially after the jolt they must have received by Gaye Kelleway’s revelations in 2017, quickly followed by twelve others who reported the same type of abuse. Whatever the trajectory of the current case, both the BHA and PJA cannot allow the status quo to continue, because once it is in the public eye, they just look foolish, old-fashioned, inept and/or lazy. They should both admit they have done a woeful job in recent times and urgently make plans to put things right, instead of trying to mount a pathetic defence of “it wasn’t us Guv”. The BHA is in charge of the whole circus, and the PJA should show some leadership and responsibility for all their members.
The report in the Racing Post says: “…. the BHA investigators outline in the report how “there is a cultural issue in which threatening behaviour is condoned and not reported in the weighing room.”” This seems to imply that the physically hardy and brave jockeys are shy and scared jockeys when it comes to speaking out about bullying. Surely not … perhaps … maybe … time to toughen up and speak up.
I have looked at the video now. All four times that Brennan used his whip, his hand was above his shoulder and therefore against the rules. His hand was so high that he might be using excessive force (another rule) or compromising the welfare of the horse (another rule). There was no enquiry into that situation by the stewards. If the stewards did not see that, then they should be under investigation themselves. What is the point of the BHA and racing groups spending so much time agonising about what the whip rules should be, and then appoint stewards who cannot be bothered to watch the races they are supposed to be stewarding.
Cork said: “However, the horse looks like an awkward and lazy character who needs strong handling. Brennan needed to get stuck into him to win. What else was he supposed to do? “ That may all be true, but why should it have any influence on whether Brennan broke the rules or not. Mr Lifter might not have the strength to win a medal at weight-lifting, but should that lack of strength mitigate his coach giving him steroids? Mr Mugger might not have enough money to feed his wife and children tonight, so would you be OK with him taking £25 from from your wallet?
There are many people inside racing who bring up the subject of why breaking the rules may still lead to a horse winning a race which it would otherwise have lost. Why is it only the rules about the use of the whip that can have this affect? A horse can win a race by five lengths, but if it gained six inches by going the wrong side of a bollard it will lose the race. In horse races we are trying to see which is the best horse in the circumstances, not find out which one can perform best under whipping. Why is whipping a natural “OK”, while buzzers and spurs and other forms of motivating a horse are not?
You will not need a search engine for this one, just good old TRF, because it is a repeat of a question from a similar thread several years ago. They do not call me dull and repetitive for nothing, you know. But if you find something good, do not throw it away, use it again. It is possible that Gladiateur will remember this because I think he was involved heavily in that old thread.
This is a horse who should be honoured in racing history, but is 99.9% forgotten. Which horse won a hurdle, a chase, and a flat race in the UK on three consecutive racing days? Maybe the trainer should be honoured as well, if you find his name.
I can only imagine his owner, Mrs. Petite Luellwitz (USA), was a resident of Chicago, and therefore gave her fastest horse the nickname of her home town – Windy City TF142.
There is not much in it on Official Ratings and RPRs, so any justification for odds going from 13/8 to 28/1 could be down to suitability of the distance and the going. But as far as my selection is concerned, it is down to the progress. Earlier in the year Adayar was a very good looking but immature horse. Then he made significant improvement before the Derby, and his acceleration there (twice) was quite eye-catching, as if he had actually learned how to race and had gained mental maturity. From what a few good judges have said about his physique, he has the potential to make more than normal improvement in the middle of his three-year-old season. If so, he could win this going away.
Ian. Thank you very much for taking the time and trouble to reply. It was very much in the mould of an old (age), old (long time ago), poster on here called Andyod. He was from the USA and was very good at teaching people like me about USA racing; with detail and patience. Thanks.
“… but I see mounting evidence the world on balance sees it differently. “
Ian. Not wishing to start a Barney, but it would be good if you could point to the mounting evidence, because I think the following stats have been relatively stable recently, give or take a smidgeon. Am I looking in the wrong direction, at places like the IFHA?
The big dirt countries, USA and Canada have 107 Grade 1 races of which just 6 are at 12F or over (5.60%)
The big turf countries, UK, Ireland, France, Germany & Japan have 106 Group 1 races of which 33 are 12F or over (31.1%).
On a like-for-like basis there is still a big gulf. Are the turf countries really altering their racing distances to accommodate the North Americans?
Reduce the Derby to 10F? Do not do it. It would lead to less able, weaker horses being hailed as champions, and used as stallions (for three years at least) to produce weaker, less talented future generations.
I thought I might leave it there, since many posters prefer to assert that their view is correct just by uttering it. And I am congenitally lazy, and can think of many more pleasurable things to do with my time. However….
Top dozen races by total purse:
$20 million – Saudi Cup 9F Dirt
$11 million – Everest (AUS) 6F Turf
$10 million – Dubai World Cup 10F Dirt
$6 million – Dubai Sheema Classic 12F Turf
$5.7 million – Arima Kinen 12F Turf
$5.7 million – Arc De Triomphe 12F Turf
$5.2 million – Japan Cup 12F Turf
$5 million – Dubai Turf 9F Turf
$5 million – Breeders Cup Classic 10F Dirt
$3 million – Breeders Cup Turf 12F Turf
$4.4 million – Melbourne Cup 16F Turf
$3 million – Kentucky Derby 10F DirtIn comparison, the Derby only has a total purse of $2.2 million. But six out of twelve are at 12F or more, on Turf! The four races at 9F or 10F are all on dirt. Does this mean that our “New Derby” over 10F should be run on Dirt to identify potential stallions for the big prizes in the rest of the world?
There is no commercial need for the Derby to be cut to 10F. The world has NOT come to the view that 1m2f, not 1m4f, is the trip that matters most.
There are some comments claiming that winning over 10F is advantageous to a potential stallion’s success, attracting both breeders and purchasers. After two crops of three-year-olds, that does not matter a jot. The DNA in the sperm of stallions has no idea over what distance a horse raced, or how successfully. That is why the world’s most expensive stallion for the past fifteen years, Deep Impact, won two Group Ones at about two miles and still breeders/buyers were very keen to acquire his progeny – because they had a higher chance of being Top Class.
As for the market for buying young horses, just looking at the 2019 Tattersalls Yearling Sales, (before the pandemic struck), the top 100 yearlings sold in terms of highest price were sired by a spread of speed and stamina stallions. Grouping them by the stallion’s best distance (by best Racing Post Rating)
12F 21
10F 4
8F 36
7F 6
6F 17
5F 2Plus the weirdo Frankel, who had 14 in the list, but he had equal RPRs for both 8F and 10.5F so did not fit into a single category. My opinion is that he is much more an influence for stamina than he is for speed as a stallion, but the complete opposite as a racehorse.
International success for stallions is measured by stud fee, topping the sales stats, winning big races, winning big money and satisfying various measures by such publications as Thoroughbred Racing Community (TRC), APEX lists, and Thoroughbred Daily News (TDN) sires tables.
The current rankings below by TRC are typical of the last few years. Listed here with the distances of Group 1 races that they won. AWD = Average Winning Distance of progeny
01. Galileo (AWD: 11.2) 3 x Grp1, 3 x 12F
02. Deep Impact (AWD: 10.5) 7 x Grp1, 1 x 10F, 1 x 11F, 3 x 12F, 1 x 15F, 1 x 16F
03. Dubawi (AWD: 9.5) 3 x Grp1, 1 x 7F, 2 x 8F
04. Frankel (AWD: 10.6) 10 x Grp1, 1 x 7F, 7 x 8F, 1 x 10F, 1 x 10.5F
05. Kingman (AWD: 8.5) 4 x Grp1, 4 x 8F
06. Into Mischief (AWD: 6.5) 1 x Grp1, 8.5F
07. Lord Kanaloa (AWD: 8.0) 6 x Grp1, 5 x 6F, 8F
08. Sea The Stars (AWD:11.3) 6 x Grp1 at 8F, 2 X 10F, 1 x 10.5F, 2 X 12F
09. Shamardal (AWD: 8.2) 4 x Grp1 2 x 7F, 8F, 10.5F
10. Teofilo (AWD: 10.7) 2 x Grp1 at 7F at 2yo onlyDon’t you just love it that Deep Impact won Group 1 races over 15F and 16F!
And what do breeders want. They want the top four in that list, who are pretty much the most expensive in the world. With the top two now dead, I do not think that any breeder who has been paying attention in the last two/three decades will try to replace them with Kingman, Into Mischief and Lord Kanaloa. They will want stallions that can produce winners over 12F, whatever distance they ran over in their racing career.
There are Eight long-term highly successful stallions from the Derby winners in the forty years from 1970 to 2010. In the same period, there are only Three such stallions (barring the Derby ones) from the combined three major UK 10F Group Ones, Eclipse, International and Champion Stakes. The three 10F sires of note are Sadler’s Wells, Giant’s Causeway and Frankel, and two of those are strong influences for stamina.
Does this 10F Derby proposal not imply that if we shortened the Derby to ten furlongs we would have the race won more frequently by horses who would not stay twelve furlongs? So, which stallions would supply the neceesary stamina to help the progeny of Kingman, Wootton Bassett, etc to see out the distance in the New World of ten furlong Super Races?
For instance:
French Derby winners since the change to 10F – 10 from 16 with sire or dam-sire a Group 1 12F winner.
In the last dozen years Eclipse, International and Champion Stakes winners – 22 from 36 with sire or dam-sire a Group 1 12F winner.
So, get rid of those 12F stamina guys and the new 10F winners will not be able to stay 10F !! So the proposal is: Eight furlongs is far enough for any thoroughbred. Do you see the problem here? A great future for the Quarter-Horse in Europe, Japan, Australia and Hong Kong.
Japan with a racing industry three times the size of the USA’s ($24 billion to $9 billion) will not be happy.
The distances that actually seem to matter are 6F, 8F and 12F. Especially 12F, because 12F stallions stop the breed from becoming feeble. The ones that stay 12F have to show mental and physical toughness that is not demanded of 10F horses. That is why they turn up so frequently in the pedigrees of shorter runners. It is not about the numbers, but what the numbers mean; as I am sure all you successful punters know.
Will Adayar be a top class horse in the near future? Yes.
Racehorses at Derby time are still developing, they are not fully mature until the middle of their fourth year. They all develop at their individual rate. In Adayar’s first two races this season, commentators said what a grand-looking horse he was and he had the potential, in just physical terms, to be much better as he matured into his frame. Although physical progress is normally slowly paced, mental progress is often surprising. Looking at the Derby video a few times it was noticeable how much more easily Adayar was going than the others as they exited Tattenham Corner into the straight. He seemed to have a lot of energy left. Then he did something you don’t often see; he accelerated twice. His first change of pace was good enough to win the race, when he went past Gear Up on the rails and gradually pulled away from the others. But when he started to come away from the rail Kirby gave him a smack to keep him straight, and soon after he gave him another and Adayar seemed to say “Oh, you want me to go even quicker. OK” and he accelerated even more. The last furlong looked as if the penny had dropped and he realised what fun racing could be. He looked really comfortable, strode out well, showed no signs of stopping (or plodding). Adayar was the only runner to go under 12 seconds in each of the final four furlongs. I think he will be a really top class horse.
Since I am even older than you look in your picture, Drone, I thought I had better help out.
Pusey Street (1977) ch f Native Bazaar – Diamond Talk (Counsel). Originally called Casbah Jewel, but renamed as a two year old when the Bosley family set up a car sales and maintenance garage in Pusey Lane, just off Pusey Street in the centre of Oxford. It is where MG built their first cars in 1924, before moving on to bigger and better premises, and where I had my MGB GT serviced when I worked in Oxford in the 1970s.
Pusey Street was a sprinter through and through.
2yo: One win and three places
3yo: Five places
4yo: Two wins and one place at
5yo: Two wins and four places at
6yo: Two wins and four places at
7yo: One win and no placesOwned and trained by John Bosley at Bampton in Oxfordshire. There were quite a few subsequent Pusey Street somethings racing and advertising for the Bosley family, up to the time when John’s son Martin, who had taken over the training, eventually retired.
A bit sad; a sign of the times; perhaps an ordinary choice given the name of the owners (Exponent Private Equity); but why on earth would the Racing Post want to “monetise” Steve Cauthen saying really nice things about the late Joe Mercer. I am OK about having most of the Racing Post content behind a paywall, it is a business after all, it is natural, and is earning a living for 300 staff. But nice words from one gentleman about another who has just died can only be read if you have paid to read them? There are many people in this industry continually espousing ideas about encouraging new people into this sport, and here we have its principal mouthpiece aligning itself with the unreconstructed Eberneezer Scrooge.
