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He stands in Gernsheim, inbetween Baden-Baden and Frankfurt. He is described as the best son of Monsun.
But someone raised the point that perhaps breeding is more important than the race record. Then why does the full-brother to Galileo, Black Sam Bellamy, stand for just 6500 euros?
Samum, a middle-distance horse that won the German Derby and Grosser Preis von Baden, never won another race in 9 attempts. By Monsun, out of Sacarina (Our Vic).
Beaten by 8L in the 2000 Arc, and 7L in the 2002 Arc, failed to win Group 2s at odds of 2/5F and 1/2F.
Stands at stud for……10,000 euros, roughly 7k. And he won less than HALF the amount Shirocco has.
Thread already started about this.
I don’t think it is a ‘poorly researched comment’.
Iota – unbeaten filly in Germany last year came to the Yorkshire Oaks and flopped.
Going into last year’s Arc, Shirocco was 25/1.
Look at the form of last year’s German Derby winner, Nicaron.
Came last of 9 in the Grosser Preis von Baden, behind Warrsan, Cherry Mix, Westerner, Samando, etc
Was also beaten this year by Shamdala, Hattan, Vol de Nuit, etc
Not exactly fantastic form.
If this year’s German Derby winner, Schiaparelli, ran in the BC Turf, what price do you think he’d be?
Royal Power won the German Guineas this year. Subsequently…
7th St James’ Palace<br>9th Prix Jean-Prat<br>5th Hungerford<br>12th Challenge Stakes
Fantastic stuff.
(Edited by jackane24 at 5:08 pm on Oct. 27, 2006)
Lomitas didn’t have any success outside of Germany. German racing is very weak usually, and Lomitas’ progeny have been successful in Germany and also America, another weak turf division.
Of the 22 Blacktype shown in the Darley 06 catalogue, Championship Point is the only horse with British success (the Chesham Stakes).
And Lomitas stands for 10k at Darley.
Shirocco – didn’t only conquer the German field, but also
1) 4th in the Arc – beaten by World Champion, one of the finest stayers in recent memory, and a previous Arc winner<br>2) 1st in BC Turf<br>3) Jockey Club Stakes winner<br>4) Coronation Cup winner<br>5) Prix Foy winner
So he conquered also the American market (in a STRONG BC Turf, beating decent European runners), Britain twice, France, and put in a very strong performance in the Arc, despite having switched stables just weeks earlier.
All I’m saying is, that based on the achievements and fee of both Lomitas and Shirocco, the latter seems like bargain of the century.
Nah Bulwark, you just ‘ruined’ this thread with that post.
Might I suggest previewing the post before submitting it? I do have some difficulty understanding some things you have written (3 instances in your last post), and perhaps it would stem some of the bad feeling if everyone clearly understood what you’re trying to say.
Quote: from jackane24 on 12:40 pm on Oct. 22, 2006[br]Authorised is a horse that ran in a strong race on his debut. I backed him that day based on the breeding and trainer. I didn’t back him yesterday though.
But I would delay the hype until mid-May Bulwark. A lot can happen over the winter. A O’B has got many good looking 2yos. Red Rock Canyon is a good horse, and both A O’B and Heffernan said that he just doesn’t show his quality on the racecourse.
Macarthur – a full bro to Motivator<br>Anton Chekhov – my current pick for the Derby.<br>Duke of Marmalade<br>Eagle Mountain<br>Admiralofthefleet<br>Able Seaman<br>Bonifacio
And there are loads more.
P.s. Kinane’s ride on Eagle Mountain was not the best<br>
I wrote this on about page 4 of this very thread – so quite how you can say no-one has mentioned another horse is beyond me.
Macarthur actually won on his debut yesterday very nicely. There is also Mount Nelson, another impressive winner for Ballydoyle recently.
Bulwark – I suggest you go and look at the Derby entries, and see how many of them are unraced as yet.
Gareth – maybe there was no pace in either of those races, but he won his maiden nicely ‘chasing the leaders.’
Lol. I do have my moments. :biggrin:
But seriously, this guy is making me look sane…
Speaking of evidence, let’s take a look at Scorpion’s race record.
Maiden – ‘Chased leaders’ Won<br>Gallinule – ‘Settled in 5th’ (6 runners) Finished 2nd<br>French Derby – ‘held up in 16th’ Finished 16th<br>Irish Derby – ‘always prominent’ Finished 2nd<br>GPDP – ‘close up’ Won in record time<br>St Leger – ‘made all’ Won comfortably<br>Arc – ‘prominent’ Finished 10th<br>Listed – ‘held up in 6th’ 2nd
So, every time he was held up, he was beaten.
With the exception of the Arc, every time he was prominent or made all, he won or came 2nd.
Perhaps he was just a pacemaker in those races though…despite him being Ballydoyle’s only runner in the GPDP.
Maybe they forgot he was their only runner and told him to force the pace?
Quote: from Bulwark on 7:04 pm on Oct. 26, 2006[br]If you check back Jackane, I think you’ll find that I said if they can go uninjured until then they’ll almost certainly win, muppet!
Ah ok, sorry about that. There was me thinking that there are other 2yos which either haven’t raced yet, or could improve up until the big day. Silly me.
So any horse that makes the running or races just behind the pace is now a pacemaker? Motivator, Dubai Millennium, Dylan Thomas, Barbaro, Shawanda, Shergar, Attraction, Helissio, Reference Point, El Gran Senor…all pacemakers.
Bulwark…congratulations. You have taken my place in the space of 3 threads.
Sergeant Cecil is a non-stayer of 2miles and needs a slow pace to win, despite having won a Group 1 at 2m 4f and 2 Group 2s over a mile, and despite his racetimes of victories all being very good…
Scorpion was a pacemaker for Hurricane Run in the Arc, despite having finished less than a length behind him in the Irish Derby, and would have won had it not been for Fallon…
Eagle Mountain will run in the BC Juvenile 2 weeks after having a very tough race in DEFEAT on heavy ground…
Either Authorized or Teofilo WILL win the Derby without a shadow of doubt, despite there being the little matter of 8 months until then…
Have an off day please. I’ve said some crap in the past, but this is extraordinary.<br>
(Edited by jackane24 at 7:04 pm on Oct. 26, 2006)
For goodness sakes Bulwark…
Trinity College and HRE were also coupled in this year’s Jean-Luc – but I didn’t happen to spot Trinity College anywhere near the front!
Quite how you can continue to call Scorpion a pacemaker in last year’s Arc is beyond me.
There were in fact 2 pacemakers in the Arc – Windya and Voltmeter.
But perhaps they chose to sacrifice their Leger and GPDP winner, just to make sure there was definite pace…
Surely the point of a pacemaker is to MAKE the pace – not sit just behind it. So now you are calling Scorpion a crap pacemaker!!!
Is it not possible to have connections run more than one horse in a race and not have a pacemaker?
I do believe Godolphin had 2 runners in the QE2 last month. Librettist wasn’t a pacemaker, and shock horror, neither was Proclamation.
Scorpion in the Irish Derby wasn’t second string – he wasn’t a pacemaker. Or perhaps he was, I mean after all, he did race close to the pace, yet didn’t make the pace….I don’t know, you tell me if he was a pacemaker.
Perhaps Red Rock Canyon was a pacemaker in the RP Trophy the other day (Damn, shouldn’t have mentioned the race…you’ll go into a long explanation about how Authorized will beat Shergar’s record now…), or perhaps, and this is just a theory, Ballydoyle felt he actually had a chance of doing well in the race…
Stables don’t always have just one chance going into a race.
Ballydoyle this year – 3 runners in 2000 (none of whom were pacemakers), 2 runners in 1000 (none of whom were pacemakers), 4 runners in French 2000 (1 was a pacemaker), 2 in French 1000 (none of whom were pacemakers)…you get the picture?
And Scorpion has no turn of foot as has been said – he just keeps galloping. Why did you think there are front runners and horses that come from off the pace?
(Edited by jackane24 at 1:41 am on Oct. 26, 2006)
Quote: from Bulwark on 1:52 am on Oct. 25, 2006[br]I honestly think however that had Scorpion not been ran as a pacemaker for HR on that occasion he had all the class to figure much further up the field that day.<br>quote]
:o
A pacemaker?? Did he not make most of the running in his St Leger on very similar ground??
He would certainly rank as the best pacemaker to have ever run if that was the case…
And also the shocking figures of St Leger winners in the Arc to back-up the poor showing…
Quote: from Bulwark on 11:19 pm on Oct. 24, 2006[br]It feels like I’m just going round in circles here Sal. quote]
It feels like I’m going round in circles reading your posts Bulwark!!! Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! I really haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about…
But if I’ve understood properly, you’re saying that the dam impacts all the stamina, and the sire impacts the speed?
Let me ask you…if your father was a 100metre sprinter, and your mother was a 10,000metre marathon runner, what would you be?
Very hard to say, but I’d imagine that you would be more likely to be a 100metre sprinter since the male genes are dominant.
But what if your father was the marathon runner and your mother was a sprinter?
Surely based on male genes being dominant, you’d be a marathon runner?
Stamina doesn’t appear from nowhere. In the case of Danehill – he is by Danzig, a son of NORTHERN DANCER. Maybe you’ve heard of him.
He won the KY Derby and Preakness – ultimately, he was a 10furlong horse.
So why was Danehill a sprinter? Surely by your prognosis, he should have also been a 10furlong horse (without taking the dam into account).
So is it really any suprise that Danehill is siring stayers? Westerner, Dylan Thomas, North Light…
Bloody hell, can someone get Bulwark a ‘Quoting Posts for Dummies’ book asap!!! :biggrin:
Bulwark – so what HRE has run so many times? Very often his 2yos do.
RoG – 7<br>Oratorio – 7<br>GW – 5<br>Horatio – 5<br>One Cool Cat – 5<br>Johannesburg – 7<br>Yesterday – 6
And as for your ‘October’ theory…
High Chaparral (Sept30th)<br>Galileo<br>Kris Kin<br>High Rise (November!!)
Horses that have won the Derby in the past 10 years after having September 30th/October/November debuts.<br>Alamshar debuted on 26th September as well.
Btw, someone said you’re in danger of taking my stop…you leave my spot alone!!!:biggrin:
(Edited by jackane24 at 12:12 pm on Oct. 24, 2006)
Authorised is a horse that ran in a strong race on his debut. I backed him that day based on the breeding and trainer. I didn’t back him yesterday though.
But I would delay the hype until mid-May Bulwark. A lot can happen over the winter. A O’B has got many good looking 2yos. Red Rock Canyon is a good horse, and both A O’B and Heffernan said that he just doesn’t show his quality on the racecourse.
Macarthur – a full bro to Motivator<br>Anton Chekhov – my current pick for the Derby.<br>Duke of Marmalade<br>Eagle Mountain<br>Admiralofthefleet<br>Able Seaman<br>Bonifacio
And there are loads more.
P.s. Kinane’s ride on Eagle Mountain was not the best
It is if you are me…;)
No Mortisha, I have to agree with others on this one. In the past certainly, the Japanese, as you say, had a mean streak and were suicidal, hence 2 A-Bombs being dropped rather than 1 – they wouldn’t have surrendered otherwise.
But it is 60 years on. All the Japanese I spoke to in Paris were really nice people.
I’m half-Polish, and my grandmother was hounded out of Poland by the Nazis, put on a train to Africa and kept there for years. My grandfather fought in the war for Poland.
But for goodness sakes. Like RD says, are all Germans now Nazis? No.
I find Germany to be a lovely country, and very much hope to live there when I’m older. I can pretty much speak German, and they are very apologetic for the war. They really don’t like even talking about it in a conversation. Does that make me a nazi?
You need to learn to move on.
p.s. Deep Impact lacked a prep race – that’s why he didn’t win.
