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Trust me if I ever feel I need to ask your permission to post on a thread I’ll be sure to ask.
As usual you seem to be suffering from small goat syndrome.
You are free to post as much as you want. Alas, it likely won’t exclude the inevitably of a reply that points out clear faults.
Let me know when you are ready to commence a friendship and we can wine and dine ourselves into even more stupidity.
Probably best if you keep your inevitably arrogant and barbed comments to yourself, or post them towards someone who values your opinion. I don’t.
A post that sums up in a nutshell why I have no understanding of race horse ratings. (And little interest either.) How in the name of god you can have Toronado 2 lbs in front of Dawn Approach, a classic winner -in fact a classic winner who has previously beaten the former twice before- is completely beyond me Ginge.
If you have no understanding of them and have no desire to discuss their merit, why bother posting about them?
Assessing horses has no room for prestige, heritage and perceptions tags. Whether he won a classic or not is somewhat irrelevant. It’s the performance within the race, not the tag, that is important.
The Guineas clearly shouldn’t be used as a measurement to compare DA and Toronado. Clearly, DA put up an excellent performance in the Guineas, which was a performance that indicated he was a top class horse. However, Toronado palpably failed to run anywhere near his best. His craven win and his two subsequent performances indicate he ran significantly below par.
Trust me if I ever feel I need to ask your permission to post on a thread I’ll be sure to ask.
•2:00 Masterstroke (Reserve Aiken)
•2:35 Tawhid (Glory Awaits)
•3:10 WentworthNAP
(Es Que Love
•3:45 Tickled Pink (Swiss Spirit)
•4:20 Oyster (Speed The Plough)
•4:50 Paviosk (The Gold Cheongsam)
•5:25 Retirement Plan (Goodwood Mirage)Timeform:
Wise Dan 134
Toronado 133
Dawn Approach 132
Farrh 132
Novellist 132Dawn Approach may be the more "consistent", but at their "best" Toronado is the "better" and as Nathan says still "improving". He settles well these days and so can show it. This was the best mile performance of 2013, possibly THE best 2013 performance FULL STOP. Had Toronado not been in the race you’d have expected Dawn Approach to beat Declaration Of War by around 2 1/2 lengths, exactly what happened. The right distances back to 4th, 5th etc too.
Therefore (imo) there is no reason why Toronado should not be rated higher than Dawn Approach. I myself would have T 2 lbs in front of DA.
A post that sums up in a nutshell why I have no understanding of race horse ratings. (And little interest either.) How in the name of god you can have Toronado 2 lbs in front of Dawn Approach, a classic winner -in fact a classic winner who has previously beaten the former twice before- is completely beyond me Ginge.
•2:15 Buckstay (Res Ajamany)
•2:45 Thunder Strike (saayerr)
•3:15 Brown Panther (Saddlers Rock)
•3:45 Wild Coco (Elik)
•4:20 Remember (Jersey Brown)
•4.55 Regal Dan (Homage)
•5.25 CopperwoodNAP
(Commend)
Just watched the race on Youtube. If they meet again over a mile I’ll be siding with Dawn Approach again. I thought Hughes was a tad clever and caught DA napping in front.
…we’re all entitled to our opinions.
Dawn Approach ran one of his typical races today, seemingly not travelling that great at one stage and then looking like he might draw away and win by a few lengths at the business end. It looked like Richard Hughes timed it perfectly today though and Toronado looked like he turned the tide, potentially for the rest of the season, in this race. This rivalry has certainly been the highlight of the season in the three year old division mostly noted for disappointing strength in depth. Where next for the sparring partners?
Couldn’t agree more and wasn’t that a vintage Hughes ride? He followed it up with an even better one in the next.
I can’t help thinking that DA was better suited by conditions today
and will struggle to beat his great rival on better ground. Saying that he was magnificent in defeat as he was ridden closest to that frantic pace and hit his customary flat spot turning in. I have written him off at my peril before and won’t do so again as this horse has a lot of guts as well as class and there is clearly virtually nothing between them. However Toronado still looks on the upgrade to me and could be a very special horse especially when stepped up in trip next year.
Two superb colts who left the decent yardstick DOW for dead with a mile back to the rest and an incredibly quick time on the good to soft ground.
It sounds like they could both be heading for the Jaques Le Marois in 10 days when they will also be taking on Intello! Then it’s winner takes all in the QEII. Toronado is staying in training but no word on DA yet.
I haven’t seen the race yet, only listened to the radio commentary, but my initial thoughts were the complete opposite. The best performance we’ve seen from DA at any stage in his career is surely his imperious Guineas victory for which the ground was rattling fast.
•1.55 The Betchworth Kid (Reserve – Beyond Conceit)
•2:30 Excess Knowledge (Cap o rushes)
•3:05 Dawn Approach (Toronado)
•3:40 ParboldNap
(Toormore)
•4:15 Flycatcher (Autumn Sunrise)
•4.50 A Star In My Eye (Close At Hand)
•5.25 Alejandro (Magic City)1.55 Fast Or Free – ( Res – Whispering Warrior)
2.30 Ambiance – (Supplicant)
3.05 GarswoodNap
– (Libranno)
3.40 Camborne – (Sir Graham Wade)
4.15 Blurred Vision – (Retrofit)
4.50 Copperwood – (Desert Resolution)
5.25 Edge Closer – (Jedward)Hammy, I am not sure Liber Nauticus quite got home in the Oaks. Obviously she is lightly raced and she has the physique to improve but the Oaks form looks really poor in retrospect.
Excess Knowledge is down to a best price of 16/1 now and as low as 12/1
You might be correct Steve. (I can’t claim to have taken much notice of her performance in the race.) The vibe I’ve had from the yard though is that she simply didn’t handle Epsom itself. I’m not sure the Leger is a serious target for her but I think they’re still expecting big things from this horse. I guess time will tell.
HAMMY WROTE:
St James Palace Stakes
1 point EWJammy Guest 66/1 BET365 -2 (Running Total -2)
Quuen Anne – Declaration Of War – 2 points win +17 (RT +15?)
King’s Stand – Reckless Abandon 2 points win -2 (RT +13)
Prine Of Wales – The Fugue 1 point EW +2.30 ? (RT +15.30)
Royal Hunt Cup – Prince Of Johanne – 1 point EW -2 (RT +13.30)
Ascot Gold Cup – 1pt EW Saddler’s Rock 8/1 Stan James -2 (RT +11.30)
War Command 2000 Guineas 10/1 Stan James 2pts win
Eclipse – Mars – 8/1 Corals – 2pts win
2014 1,000 Guineas – Joyeuse- 2pts win 16/1 Ladbrokes
July Cup -Shea Shea 2pts win 6/1 (Ladbrokes)
Sussex stakes – Dawn Approach 2 points win at SP.
Arc – Novellist – 2pts win @ 6/1 Ladbrokes.
BTW I forgot to mention, Amy Ryan’s fall looked horrific! My heart was in my mouth when the initial picture of the fall showed her left prone on the floor. Talk about relieved when she sat up! I bet her poor old dad went through it for a couple of minutes there.
A deeply impressive performance from Novellist and surely a worth Arc favourite after that showing. Ektihaam and Universal set it up at what looked a suicidal lick in a massive track record time. Not surprisingly they couldn’t keep it up but Ektihaam faded very disappointly today.
Cirrus Des Aigles? What can you say? I thought his age, trip and the firmish ground were against him and he never looked like winning. A timely reminder that Timeform ratings and claims of being the best horse in the world are no guarantee of victory, in fact their lowest rated two filled second and third, their top rated (by some way) out of the frame and their second rated was stone last.
Good efforts from Trading Leather and Hillstar, the former loving the fast conditions. Harlem Globetrotter Red Cadeaux showed it’s easier netting big money than the big name races.
Serious looking horse Novellist on today’s evidence.
Fair play to you Steve. I very nearly waded into CDA at 7/4 today. If I’m totally honest I thought it possibly the bet of the season -although I had expected rain before racing this morning. Luckily I decided against a bet given the state of the ground. In the end though I don’t think the ground beat the horse so much as fitness and perhaps age. I still think that at his best, and on a yielding surface, none of those horses get near him.
Having said that I agree that the winner looked a very good horse and justifies his position as favourite for the Arc.
It will be interesting to see if the French gelding comes back to contest the Juddmonte at York.
BTW Well done to those who tipped up the French horse. Mr Caution must have uncompromising photos of the stewards or summat! He’s been involved in more enquiries than Poirot over the past month.
Hammy, my main bet after Ektihaam today was Tropics in the dash at York. Bing, bong Stewards enquiry was called but when your luck’s in it’s in
Unbelievable! I watched the race live and actually thought of posting a quip in your direction.
"In view of the fact that Mahmood Al Zarooni had left the country and was not responding either to direct efforts to contact him or via his previously engaged solicitors, it was not considered the best use of the sport’s funds and resources."
I see they fall short of saying that he has returned to Dubai. You surely couldn’t pass wind in that country without the monarch’s blessing, and we’re lead to believe that the law starts and finishes with him, so were AZ residing there I think you could quite fairly conclude that the Sheik would be failing in a duty to racing by providing this crook with a safeguard against closer scrutiny.
The entire thing reads -at least between the lines- as though maximum deference has been paid toward the Sheik’s sensitivities. I find it difficult not to see the whole investigation and report as total whitewash.
I guess the whole episode casts an unedifying super trouper over the sport’s growing dependency upon Arab participation and sponsorship.
Not a good day for my town.
Edited for spelling mistakes.
This race looks pretty simple to me.
It depends entirely on whether CDA retains his ability. If he does, he wins
– simple as that. His trainer seems to think he is better than ever and with the ground riding good and with plenty of rain forecast tomorrow morning I will be filling my boots.
Agree with that 100 percent!
