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Ginge I’m giving up for now. No you haven’t won
its nearly time for the opener at Chester.So presumably you weren’t a big fan of the Breeders’ Cup World Championship, when it was created in the 1980s, presumably as it gave too much advantage to the Americans on their home turf?
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I don’t like the Breeders Cup meeting no but thats predominantly because it has dirt racing and I don’t like dirt racing not even in the UK, I’m a traditionalist in that respect and only like turf racing.
The American’s have an advantage in their own back yard yes but it isn’t one stable there are many American trainers / owners, thats the difference in the advantage respect.
A little bit better Flash, just a little.
Probably the main reason for "Godolphin’s" buying spree is their refusal to use Coolmore stallions.
Therefore, they are buying a lot of potential stallions such as New Approach and Teofilo who have Northern Dancer blood.
Why is it wrong for Sheikh Mo (and it is sheikh Mo, not Godolphin) to run so many of his own / part owned horses in the Dewhurst? Surely it is a good thing that he is willing to run so many good horses against each other. He deserves credit.
Ginge
Can we call this a day soon? I type with one finger on each hand and both are feeling seriously uncomforable right now.
I don’t think it is wrong for Godolphin / Sheikh Mo / associates (whatever term suits) to run horses against each other, Aidan O’Brien does it all the time, he must’ve had about five (?) in last years Derby. The difference is SM / G / A brought New Approach (OK Princess Haya owned officially I know) and Fast Company after they had come first and second. Can’t remember whether they purchased others before or after.
Had they brought them as yearlings / bred them I wouldn’t have a problem. Though obviously ideally I’d rather a race wasn’t overrun with same ownered / trainerd runners whether it be O’Brien, Godolphin, Stoute, Cecil, Cheveley Park – whoever.
"French jump racing isn’t competitive like it is in Britain, its not widely popular. Those horses are taken from a limitted jumping environment and raced over here in Britain the only (what I would call) serious jump racing place in Europe (UK and Ireland). I think they are big differences. "
Why the smilies?
Where are the huge jump meetings that the Brits / Irish aim their horses? Are there any French meetings on a par with the Cheltenham festival or Aintree or the King George?
Is there a French Grand National?
Very good point and I totally agree I’ve posted before about Godolphin’s egotistical Dubai World Cup meeting, created for their own interests and to change the face of racing.
Like most things Godolphin its had a modicum of success but in reality it doesnt rank anywhere amongst most racing fans in the street, no one cares about racinbg in Dubai. Yes there will be some hardcore followers some of whom post on this forum but its never going to take off and capture the publics imagination whatevr they try and do. I pay no attention to it whatsoever.
Lets make one thing very clear – I have never accused you of being racist – Xenophobia is to do with the fear of "foreign" or "strange" people (I put the definition up to clarify!). Foreign in the sense that it is strange or different, nothing to do with the colour of anyone’s skin. You are putting words in my mouth Flash.
Come off it mate. When you say foreign it is easy to move the goalposts in meaning. When someone says foreign with regard to xenophobia it rarely means foreign as in "strange" especially when its clear we are (I presume) white people discussing Arabs. Even Ginge has clearly taken it the "other way".
The "them and us" thing, its automatic – to discuss someone else automatically makes them a them.
"Personally – My problem is with Godolphin – the way the operate, the way they IMO (I don’t expect everyone to agree and thats fine) attempted to change the face of top flight racing. My point had nothing whatsoever to do with any "foreigner" in the sport."
Flash – can you explain this a bit more please. What is wrong with the way Goldolphin operate compared to say Coolmore…. o
Coolmore breed their horses, they buy yearlings they race them. The major difference is they don’t go around buying up other people’s horses of relatively proven ability. They may have in the odd instance but its not a regular thing. If you count up the ammount of times they have done it compared to Godolphin it can’t be anywhere near a quarter as much over the years (I don’t have any stats but I’m sure no one would really deny that).
The Dubai World Cup meeting (which I don’t like) is a creation of either Godolphin / Sheikh Mohammed (probably them and many others with various degrees of input) in order to attempt to establish a new World Championship of racing in Dubai in order to benefit Godolphin as the only (?) competing organisation on their home turf (so to speak).
Flash, calm down mate.
I am not presuming anything, what I am saying is some of what you write can be construed as racism. So you should be careful of what you say here.Also, I have asked you several questions, and pointed things out which you ignore.
You have every right to have a different opinion than me, I enjoy debate. But some of your views seem inconsistant and worse.
For example, why is it so wrong for Sheikh Mo to to buy and take good prospects from British yards. But it is o.k. for British trainers to buy and move good prospects from foreign yards?
Without further comment from you, this seems hypocritical. And no you have not answered the question with anything like enough reason. Just a few words which seems to suggest because you had not heard of them it was o.k. Or, they are foreigners so it does not count, this is not good enough reason.
Ginge
Ginge :
1 I am calm .. (ish).
2 There is nothing whatsoever to point to racism. Its only there because you look for it. If you don’t think in those terms then there isn’t an issue.
3 I don’t answer all points for two reasons (mainly)
a) I feel they’ve already been sufficiently answered
b) Because I’m knackered having just finished a nightshift and sometimes can’t be bothered.
I suppose there is also a c) (at times) – I don’t have time.
4 Godolphin (not Sheikh Mo – there you go again), buy already proven at Group level horses on a large scale which takes the romance out of the sport in an attempt to ensure themselves success. As stated before if they brought a Salisbury maiden winner or a Musselburgh maiden winner I wouldn’t have a problem, its the fact that buy up (relatively) proven horses in an attempt to monopolise group 1’s. For example the top 2yo race of the year the Dewhurst – how many of that field did they own, in one way or another afterwards? New Approach, Fast Company, McCartney, Rio De La Plata, Hatta Fort (off the top of my head). They then go and race them in the same country against the same opposition. Paul Nicholls picks up youngsters from France and races them in Britain. French jump racing isn’t competitive like it is in Britain, its not widely popular. Those horses are taken from a limitted jumping environment and raced over here in Britain the only (what I would call) serious jump racing place in Europe (UK and Ireland). I think they are big differences.
Now OK Ginge, I realise you won’t agree with me regarding that point but at least express my right to that opinion.
Flash, I never suggested you needed my permission to post.
Why is it pathetic? Please explain to me, clearly and rationally if possible, why it is an unjustified comment to suggest that this thread was becoming xenophobic. For all and sundry the dictionary definition is: A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.
Again, you explain your rationale to me and I will concede that this thread was not xenophobic – I am not afraid or to proud to to admit I am wrong Flash.
My comment was that I don’t see how your comment could be tongue in cheek or ironic in any way. Why you think I was calling you a liar I don’t know.
Ok. It is an unjustified comment because there is no reason whatsoever from the material in this topic to infer that any of the posts by myself or anyone else was made on the back of racial hatred. You please point out where there was a clear case or mention of race / xenophobia. There aren’t any are there, they were just presumptions. Ironically the race issue was in the mind of those who jumped to "defend" it i.e. creating a race issue over something that wasn’t there. Please tell me where I am wrong on that point.
Personally – My problem is with Godolphin – the way the operate, the way they IMO (I don’t expect everyone to agree and thats fine) attempted to change the face of top flight racing. My point had nothing whatsoever to do with any "foreigner" in the sport.
The race issue wasnt there thats why it is unjustified to attack someone on the back of it. Is there any difference between this case and me labelling you sexist for criticising a female jockey (hyperthetically)?
Like I said no reasons, no answers.
Flash,
If you are not willing to tell us why you think these things, and then come up with statements that SOUND (not are, but SOUND like) xenophobic or racist material. Statements that SEEM to suggest you wish him and his family get out of Britain, then people are going to think the worst.
I hope and believe you are neither of these things but some of what you say SEEMS to suggest differently.Ginge
Ginge, if you’re going to make presumptions then be prepared to be told when you are wrong. If you don’t like that then don’t make presumptions on the back of how something "sounds" to you. If you want to know something ask me I will give you a honest answer.
I don’t wish to make an enemy of you I just don’t appreciate being attacked on the back of something that isn’t true because of a presumption you have made.
You clearly have a completely different opinion to me on Godolphin, I can accept your right to your opinion why cant you accept mine?
Flash,
If you ask someone to wallow in their own ignorance then don’t expect any sympathy.
If you use a bad example which you later concede don’t expect me not to use it.
I don’t understand why your comment would be tongue in cheek? Particularly as i’ve pointed out the Sheikh has a big presence over there.
Xenophobia – the original comment was not specifically directed at you but at the general sentiment of the thread. However, since you took it on yourself to shout your mouth about it that infers its a sore point.
And if you used to run a message board good for you. Perhaps you would like to share the url with me so I can visit this place of heightened literary and social etiquette. Alternatively you could go and talk rubbish there instead of here.
I will go where I like I won’t ask your permission to post. Who the hell do you think you are? PS no you’re not getting the URL.
The xenophobia comment was not directly aimed at me, conceded but thats no justification it was still an utterly pathetic comment to make.
As for not realising the tongue in cheek comment – well that doesn’t surprise me to be honest but it was, now are you going to call me a liar as well?
Excellant stuff Aragorn,
Flash likes to shout his opinion, without giving good reasons. And, just ignores completely any questions other PL members ask of his views. Putting his head in the sand and not entering in to informed, reasoned debate. Don’t hold out much hope of him coming back and actually answering your points Aragorn.Ginge
There is nothing "reasonable" about calling someone disgraceful and distasteful for expressing an opinion. I never called you any such thing and I don’t expect it called of me.
You’re picking on the wrong one mate.
Give Aragon his pat on the back, gang up against the common enemy, make your new friend but you will not intimidate me Ginge neither will you alter my views.
Aragon. Firstly this is a messageboard not an English exam so petulant comments regarding spelling may leave you feeling somewhat childishly smug but hey if it makes you that happy. Cheap point to you is it? Well, if it pleases you, you award yourself that point.
Secondly – Have already done the Nicholl’s thing. Obviously you’ve either a) not seen it or b) just decided to bring it up again for the sake of it.
Thirdly – The American thing – was meant to be tongue in cheek. As was the "Am I tempting you" comment. Or do you seriously believe I think Sheikh Mo reads these forums?
Forthly – The xenophobic thing is just sad and pathetic. Once again I’ve commented on that and have nothing further to add. Its a cheap and utterly stupid shot and if Admin don’t warn you about making those sort of accusations without damn good reason then they’re not doing their job properly. I used to run a messageboard with over 6,000 members and no way would I have allowed that. Accusing someone of racism / xenophobia (however you want to dress it up) unjustifiably is as bad as the act itself.
I think you would do better to address the numerous points raised in response to the somewhat vicious comments and assertions you and LGR made about the supposed intentions of the Godolphin operation/Sheik mohammed.
At the moment, your comments come across as petulant and unfounded as your original posts on the subject
Why? To argue points I’ve already made? No point going over old ground. I’ve made my points if people want to disagree with them thats up to then but I will not relent just to be agreeable to those that don’t like what I say. People can call me what they like but I’m honest and I say it as I see it, if people dont like it thats their choice.
What I will NOT take lying down is being called xenaphobic for expressing my opinion. Believe me if I were xenophobic you’d know about it because I don’t conform to anyone for any reason politicians or otherwise, I have free speech and I will say exactly what I think.
Neither will I be acused of "attacks on the man" presumably Sheikh Mohammed when its the Godolphin operation I have a problem with. The same thing? I don’t think so I’ve nothing against the man SM personally. He’s not a murderer, he’s not a paedo, he’s not a rapist or a terrorist, he’s no scum I do not attack him as a person.
If people can’t understand the points I’m making (and clearly some don’t) they should ask instead of coming out with complete and utter garbage.
Europe doesn’t exactly have a top class middle-distance arsenal.
If he turns up, he wins.
Flippin heck lol we haven’t even seen the three year olds yet (not at any sort of level anyway).
Getaway and Soldier Of Fortune will set a pretty good standard too.
My attacks are not on "the man" they are on the Godolphin operation there’s a difference.
Come off it
Thats like saying that an attack on the Virgin empire is not an attack on Branson
You can believe what you like mate I don’t need to justify myself to you. If thats what you want to believe you go ahead and do it, wollow in your own ignorance.
they IMO tried to set up their own racing industry,creating another world of racing in the hope they would take over from Europe and America as the fore-bearer of horse racing.
vast amounts of prize money and the best facilities anyone could offer is available and many take up the offer of running their horses at Dubai but it is just for the prize money, a Derby or Breeders winner will always rank above any Dubai cup in history and nostalgia.
You can buy many things but not history.Very good point and I totally agree I’ve posted before about Godolphin’s egotistical Dubai World Cup meeting, created for their own interests and to change the face of racing.
Like most things Godolphin its had a modicum of success but in reality it doesnt rank anywhere amongst most racing fans in the street, no one cares about racinbg in Dubai. Yes there will be some hardcore followers some of whom post on this forum but its never going to take off and capture the publics imagination whatevr they try and do. I pay no attention to it whatsoever.
Its like Coolmore creating a World Cup meeting it just isn’t right.
No one is bigger than the sport and owners whoever they are shouldn’t be trying to run it in any way shape or form though how you stop Sheikh Mohammed in Dubai I really don’t know.
The reason why many punters over here are not as interested in the World Cup is because it is on Dirt and not always as competitive as British punters like. Sheikh Mo and other Muslims are not punters, they are not interested in betting, so are not as interested as us in having competitive racing. Being more interested having the best horses in the world competing.
With winners Cigar, Singspeil, Dubai Millenium, Curlin etc. etc. it has done just that. How you can not think the World Cup has not been a great success is crazy.If there was no or little racing in Ireland then Coolmore would undoubtedly want to do a similar thing. As there is already top class racing there, there is no point.
Your opinions on Sheikh Mohammed are inconsistant (with others doing exactly the same buying up top prospects without your criticism). Of course he buys up more than any other owner, he has more money than any other owner. Your reasons are stupid and not thought out. Your attacks on the man are distasteful and disgraceful.
Ginge
You have your opinion Ginge and I will have mine. My attacks are not on "the man" they are on the Godolphin operation there’s a difference.
Disgraceful and distasteful? Because I don’t agree with you? Well I AM sorry, didn’t know I had to.
You are so obviously right about everything then Ginge, give yourself a Gold star mate.
This is a ridiculous thread. They’ve made a lot of british people rich and generally are probably a more sporting outfit than coolmore (Who I also have plenty of respect for).
Xenophobia.
This is the type of thing I can’t stand. I can take any opposing view but posts like this really get on my tits. You don’t arse lick someone who’s not white British and you get labelled.
FFS grow up mate and stop being so pathetic.
Admin should do something about this.
its nearly time for the opener at Chester.