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"Personally – My problem is with Godolphin – the way the operate, the way they IMO (I don’t expect everyone to agree and thats fine) attempted to change the face of top flight racing. My point had nothing whatsoever to do with any "foreigner" in the sport."
Flash – can you explain this a bit more please. What is wrong with the way Goldolphin operate compared to say Coolmore…. o
Coolmore breed their horses, they buy yearlings they race them. The major difference is they don’t go around buying up other people’s horses of relatively proven ability. They may have in the odd instance but its not a regular thing. If you count up the ammount of times they have done it compared to Godolphin it can’t be anywhere near a quarter as much over the years (I don’t have any stats but I’m sure no one would really deny that).
The Dubai World Cup meeting (which I don’t like) is a creation of either Godolphin / Sheikh Mohammed (probably them and many others with various degrees of input) in order to attempt to establish a new World Championship of racing in Dubai in order to benefit Godolphin as the only (?) competing organisation on their home turf (so to speak).
"French jump racing isn’t competitive like it is in Britain, its not widely popular. Those horses are taken from a limitted jumping environment and raced over here in Britain the only (what I would call) serious jump racing place in Europe (UK and Ireland). I think they are big differences. "
Very good point and I totally agree I’ve posted before about Godolphin’s egotistical Dubai World Cup meeting, created for their own interests and to change the face of racing.
Like most things Godolphin its had a modicum of success but in reality it doesnt rank anywhere amongst most racing fans in the street, no one cares about racinbg in Dubai. Yes there will be some hardcore followers some of whom post on this forum but its never going to take off and capture the publics imagination whatevr they try and do. I pay no attention to it whatsoever.
Lets make one thing very clear – I have never accused you of being racist – Xenophobia is to do with the fear of "foreign" or "strange" people (I put the definition up to clarify!). Foreign in the sense that it is strange or different, nothing to do with the colour of anyone’s skin. You are putting words in my mouth Flash.
Come off it mate. When you say foreign it is easy to move the goalposts in meaning. When someone says foreign with regard to xenophobia it rarely means foreign as in "strange" especially when its clear we are (I presume) white people discussing Arabs. Even Ginge has clearly taken it the "other way".
The "them and us" thing, its automatic – to discuss someone else automatically makes them a them.
"French jump racing isn’t competitive like it is in Britain, its not widely popular. Those horses are taken from a limitted jumping environment and raced over here in Britain the only (what I would call) serious jump racing place in Europe (UK and Ireland). I think they are big differences. "
Why the smilies?
Where are the huge jump meetings that the Brits / Irish aim their horses? Are there any French meetings on a par with the Cheltenham festival or Aintree or the King George?
Is there a French Grand National?
A little bit better Flash, just a little.
Probably the main reason for "Godolphin’s" buying spree is their refusal to use Coolmore stallions.
Therefore, they are buying a lot of potential stallions such as New Approach and Teofilo who have Northern Dancer blood.
Why is it wrong for Sheikh Mo (and it is sheikh Mo, not Godolphin) to run so many of his own / part owned horses in the Dewhurst? Surely it is a good thing that he is willing to run so many good horses against each other. He deserves credit.
Ginge
Value Is EverythingSo presumably you weren’t a big fan of the Breeders’ Cup World Championship, when it was created in the 1980s, presumably as it gave too much advantage to the Americans on their home turf? Or the Hong Kong International meeting?
I don’t see the problem with the Dubai carnival. It doesn’t clash with another major meeting (they didn’t choose to hold it in June for example). Dubai is a good place to stage a truly international meeting, as it is fairly ‘convenient’ for the Europeans, the Australasians, the South Africans and has had some success in attracting Americans. Global racing is surely healthy for competition? Yes, you will always get more domestic competitors than international, but that’s the same wherever you go, and it’s a fault of the organisers, who have offered every incentive for international participants.
And can I also add my
for the French comment.A little bit better Flash, just a little.
Probably the main reason for "Godolphin’s" buying spree is their refusal to use Coolmore stallions.
Therefore, they are buying a lot of potential stallions such as New Approach and Teofilo who have Northern Dancer blood.
Why is it wrong for Sheikh Mo (and it is sheikh Mo, not Godolphin) to run so many of his own / part owned horses in the Dewhurst? Surely it is a good thing that he is willing to run so many good horses against each other. He deserves credit.
Ginge
Can we call this a day soon? I type with one finger on each hand and both are feeling seriously uncomforable right now.
I don’t think it is wrong for Godolphin / Sheikh Mo / associates (whatever term suits) to run horses against each other, Aidan O’Brien does it all the time, he must’ve had about five (?) in last years Derby. The difference is SM / G / A brought New Approach (OK Princess Haya owned officially I know) and Fast Company after they had come first and second. Can’t remember whether they purchased others before or after.
Had they brought them as yearlings / bred them I wouldn’t have a problem. Though obviously ideally I’d rather a race wasn’t overrun with same ownered / trainerd runners whether it be O’Brien, Godolphin, Stoute, Cecil, Cheveley Park – whoever.
So presumably you weren’t a big fan of the Breeders’ Cup World Championship, when it was created in the 1980s, presumably as it gave too much advantage to the Americans on their home turf?
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I don’t like the Breeders Cup meeting no but thats predominantly because it has dirt racing and I don’t like dirt racing not even in the UK, I’m a traditionalist in that respect and only like turf racing.
The American’s have an advantage in their own back yard yes but it isn’t one stable there are many American trainers / owners, thats the difference in the advantage respect.
Ginge :
1 I am calm .. (ish).
2 There is nothing whatsoever to point to racism. Its only there because you look for it. If you don’t think in those terms then there isn’t an issue.
3 I don’t answer all points for two reasons (mainly)
a) I feel they’ve already been sufficiently answered
b) Because I’m knackered having just finished a nightshift and sometimes can’t be bothered.
I suppose there is also a c) (at times) – I don’t have time.
4 Godolphin (not Sheikh Mo – there you go again), buy already proven at Group level horses on a large scale which takes the romance out of the sport in an attempt to ensure themselves success. As stated before if they brought a Salisbury maiden winner or a Musselburgh maiden winner I wouldn’t have a problem, its the fact that buy up (relatively) proven horses in an attempt to monopolise group 1’s. For example the top 2yo race of the year the Dewhurst – how many of that field did they own, in one way or another afterwards? New Approach, Fast Company, McCartney, Rio De La Plata, Hatta Fort (off the top of my head). They then go and race them in the same country against the same opposition. Paul Nicholls picks up youngsters from France and races them in Britain. French jump racing isn’t competitive like it is in Britain, its not widely popular. Those horses are taken from a limitted jumping environment and raced over here in Britain the only (what I would call) serious jump racing place in Europe (UK and Ireland). I think they are big differences.
Now OK Ginge, I realise you won’t agree with me regarding that point but at least express my right to that opinion.
"Proven at Group level", like Kauto, Master, Neptunes.
"Relatively proven", like Kauto, Master, Neptunes.
It does not matter if there is not the competitiveness in France, the quality was already there.
"Nicholls picks up youngsters from France and races tham in Britain", Godolphin pick up youngsters from Britain and races them in Britain.Value Is EverythingWhy the smilies?
Where are the huge jump meetings that the Brits / Irish aim their horses? Are there any French meetings on a par with the Cheltenham festival or Aintree or the King George?
Good God yes.
The April, May, June and November meetings at Auteuil which between them incorporate the Prix du Président de la République (the French Grand National), the Grand Steeple-Chase de Paris, the Grande Course de Haies and the Prix La Haye Jousselin may all arguably be talked about in the same terms as the British meetings listed.
The likes of Pau and Enghien also offer Graded and Listed jumps fare.
That fewer British and Irish runners take part in them is more of an indictment of our handlers’ lack of imagination than it is of the quality of racing and prizemoney on offer.
Further, there are more courses in France hosting jumps racing than there are in Britain, even if the net total of races over the sticks doesn’t quite equal ours.
In short, it doesn’t help in any argument being made here to regard French jumps racing as a minor and comparatively irrelevant or parochial discipline.
I trust this helps.
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Ginge I’m giving up for now. No you haven’t won
its nearly time for the opener at Chester.Why the smilies?
Where are the huge jump meetings that the Brits / Irish aim their horses? Are there any French meetings on a par with the Cheltenham festival or Aintree or the King George?
Good God yes.
The April, May, June and November meetings at Auteuil which between them incorporate the Prix du Président de la République (the French Grand National), the Grand Steeple-Chase de Paris, the Grande Course de Haies and the Prix La Haye Jousselin may all be talked about in the same terms as the British meetings listed.
The likes of Pau and Enghien also offer Graded and Listed jumps fare.
That fewer British and Irish runners take part in them is more of an indictment of our handlers’ lack of imagination than it is of the quality of racing and prizemoney on offer.
Further, there are more courses in France hosting jumps racing than there are in Britain, even if the net total of races over the sticks doesn’t quite equal ours.
In short, it doesn’t help in any argument being made here to regard French jumps racing as a minor and comparatively irrelevant or parochial discipline.
I trust this helps.
gc
Those races still aren’t on the scale of the top British events though are they? Our Grand National is the "biggest race in the world" who outside of France is really bothered about their equivalent?
Now I really am off.
Every sport is commercially driven these days – If you don’t like it I suggest you leave the betting shop and attend point to points with Jeremy and the crew.
Yes, come over to the dark side, preciousssssss….
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
flash – you are totally on the wind up…..Now you’re anti-french!
Lol. Actually you’re right I don’t like the French, rightly or wrongly.
Hurricane Run was not bred or bought as a yearling by Coolmore, he was bought before he ran in the Irish Derby.
JohnJ
its nearly time for the opener at Chester.
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