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I will be surprised if Denman runs in this year’s Gold Cup.
I agree. The implication seems to be that it was the hard race Denman had in last year’s GC, which was deemed necessary to run the finish out of KS, which may have caused or at least contributed to his heart problem. He obviously hasn’t bounced back 100% if today’s race is anything to go by, so how do connections justify potentially subjecting him to a similarly tough race at Cheltenham, against a fresher Kauto who – touching wood – won’t have had any niggles or interruptions this time around? Are they prepared to risk bottoming him forever, bringing on a recurrence of the heart murmur, or worse?
And the point I was making, Equitrack, is that while you have interpreted "he doesn’t win from behind" as "Denman wasn’t ideally placed" (i.e. by his jockey), I have interpreted it as PFN describing his realisation that Denman being "behind" and therefore not going to win was not a matter of riding tactics that didn’t work, but because Madison du Berlais was going faster.
After the fifth or sixth fence there was no suggestion that Ruby was holding Denman up with a view to coming from behind and as stated, that’s not what I think Nicholls was saying. I think he was saying once MdB had gone on he knew the writing was on the wall precisely because Denman tends not to get headed in his races. Your interpretation suggests Ruby had a choice in the matter and I didn’t get a suggestion of that from either watching the race itself or listening to PFN’s post-race comments.
Paul Nicholls said after the race that ‘he knew we were in trouble a long way out as he doesn’t win from behind’. Given that Sam Thomas was slated for costing Kauto Star the race at Haydock, Mr Ego declaring that the result would have been different under Ruby, will he blame the Irishman for not taking the race up as Thomas did in the Gold Cup?
I can’t see it somehow.
Today was little more than a public schooling session.
I interpreted his remark differently, i.e. disappointment that Denman hadn’t been able/good enough to get away from MdB and establish his authority on the race, not a comment on how the horse was ridden. Denman jumped his way to the front at about the sixth fence and kicked clear of the rest of the field mid-race – it was just unfortunate/disappointing (from Team Ditcheat’s POV) that MdB went with him and then past him, and it was clear that this was not because Ruby wanted to ‘win from behind’ but because Denman simply couldn’t match the other horse today, for whatever reason.
I think from the post-race remarks and body language from PFN and Ruby that in a way, this was one of the worst results possible for connections because of the dilemma it poses. In a way it might have been easier to stomach Denman struggling by halfway and being pulled up, because at least they could say "right, problem’s not fixed, back to the drawing board". If he’d gone down by a hard-fought length to the horse, giving him weight, then there would have been mild disappointment at the loss of his unbeaten chasing record but lots of positives. But on the face of it, he’s given weight and a 25l beating to the horse that Kauto Star beat 8l at levels (albeit on different ground) – but has been pasted pointless by a younger and evidently improving horse himself.
I’m a huge Kauto fan and I’d love him to regain the GC, but I don’t want it to be by default.
If you register with the National Equine Database, which currently has a "£1 for three months offer" (and it’s a one-off Paypal payment so you’re not setting up anything long-standing), you can get a lot of information about offspring which you can then cross-reference with performance from racing-specific sites. The pedigree data is uploaded directly from Wetherbys.
It states there is a ‘fair usage’ limit on TB information, but I’ve spent literally hours on there and never had any problems (saddo that I am).
http://www.nedonline.co.uk/public/Home.aspx
Apparently if Newbury is off then the BHA are keen to re-stage the Aon and Game Spirit to take place "next week" (no more specific than that at this stage) so presumably Denman would line up in the rescheduled Aon.
Apparently if Newbury is off, then the BHA are hoping to reschedule the AON and Game Spirit "next week".
Why can’t PN take criticism?….
Given the (somewhat ironic, bearing in mind the subject) amount of sniping and slagging on this thread, perhaps it’s because he’s distantly related to some forum members…?
While I agree with the general definitions of the term ‘forward’ already posted, I think there is an added element which is to suggest that the horse in question is more mature/physically developed/ready for work than the average horse of that particular age or at that particular stage of development, i.e. there is an implicit comparison being made. (In the same way as ‘backward’ holds a suggestion that the horse is not as well-grown/mature/mentally ready as it ‘should’ be at a particular stage, based on knowledge of the average horse’s development.
I saw one in the RP the other day….
" Jockey reported that the gelding was unsuited by the good ground "
….oh wait lets just have a look down here at the rest of the form..ahh yes found what im looking for, low n’ behold the horse won on " good " ground a meer 2 weeks prior to the race.Form book is worthless and this is another reason to back up my belief
Trouble is one clerk of the course’s ‘Good’ can be another’s ‘Good-Firm but we don’t like to put Firm in the going so we’ll just say Good’ and can be yet another’s ‘Definitely on the soft side but Star Horse X down to run in the big race only likes it Good so that’s what we’ll call it to make sure he still comes here’!
I was mightily impressed with I’msingingtheblues yesterday. As was Ruby, judging by his animation after he’d got off ("unbelievable" was the only bit I caught but he doesn’t get excited over nothing). I wouldn’t be in a hurry to take any fancy prices about him for the Arkle, as I think Claisse’s OCD when it comes to watering would scupper any chance of him getting his ground at Cheltenham, but he’ll certainly pay his way on good or faster and might be a nice type for the Maghull.
You should be able to tell by what the other runners in the race carried. If a handicap then by ratings
Ha, brilliant, thanks! On that basis it doesn’t include the o/w – 10-1 horse rated 116, 10-5 horse rated 120, 9-12 horse rated 113, so horse in question rated to carry 10-1 but presumably carried 10-2 – but it does take into account an apprentice’s claim.
Why does longevity ‘have’ to be a concern? If the purpose of a racehorse is to race while he’s fit and well, then Pigeon Island is fulfilling his purpose. And he clearly is still fit and well, since he won last time out beating Listed and Graded winners. Like people, horses are all different. Some thrive on work and sulk or lose condition when turned away.
If the connections had said after his first win "we see him as a long-term National prospect" then fair enough, he might be considered to have been taken to the well a bit too often as a youngster, but he’s a Flat-bred precocious type. Turn him out for the summer tomorrow and he could get kicked and injured, and then his owners would probably regret not having made the most of his zest and talent while he was sound and in form.
Assuming they are prepared to do right by him and find him an alternative career when he does start to decline, accepting that that may happen sooner than if he were a traditional NH-bred who had taken the bumper route, then I think his connections are entitled to run him as often as they wish while he’s clearly in good heart.
Who will ride, I wonder?
What, Neptune Collonges? I’d be surprised if Ruby wasn’t riding him, since he won on him last year. The only other horse I could feasibly see him riding is Pomme Tiepy, but I’d assume she’s more likely to line up in the novice chase. The rest of Willie Mullins’ entries are either unlikely runners or no hopers.
There is no proof that horses can reason, which is what would be required for them to link ‘pleasant fuss and attention’ with ‘running faster to a certain point’. There is no proof that horses would even be aware that the ‘fuss and attention’ is as a direct result of the ‘running faster’. Anyone involved in training riding horses knows that reward at the EXACT instant the horse offers the desired behaviour is crucial, which is why clicker training and similar methods are gaining in popularity, especially among those who have studied horse psychology to a certain extent.
Even if it is subsequently proven one day that horses CAN reason, can we really be so sure that the immediate aftermath of winning is pleasant for them? Think about it. They are flight animals, and how are they ‘rewarded’? By being led into an enclosed space surrounded by loud noise. How many times do you see a horse in the winners’ enclosure throwing its head up and down, laying its ears back, trying to spin away from the people crowding it. They are not the signs of a ‘happy’ (to use a human concept) horse.
And Fist…I can only assume you’ve never had cats, if you honestly believe they aren’t capable of learning their names!
Denman – GC champion, excellent 3m+ machine, beat the best (Kauto)
Kauto Star – Imperious KG win, still the most versatile/talented NH horse in training
Katchit – Superb CH win against all odds
Master Minded – Exceptional QMCC winner
Binocular – Very talented hurdlerI’d agree with that except I’d have Inglis Drever in place of Binocular.