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If every time you went into a certain pub you got glassed in the face you’d probably stop going there. Likeweise, if every Wednesday punters Came Back to the same track only to find the same connections collecting their Christmas Bonus they’d probably stop coming back.
This is actually what has happened, with the partially scripted races now taking place before empty stands.
The number one thing racing could do to stamp down on corruption is to shut the Sunbury sandpit of shame’s doors for good. Of course they won’t as racing now gets a cut of the proceeds of crime, with the bookies using the vast overounds there to rig the market to get non-jiggers to go off fav.
As long as there’s the possibility that running badly will see your handicap mark drop (ie. you have a better chance of winning) and you can by punting make the same amount for winning a Class 7 Seller as you can for winning a Group 1 then there will be corruption.
Did Sir Mark really think that Foreign Affairs was only a handicapper?
Did the respective trainers of Holding Court and Lailani think at the start of their 3yo season they’d be running in Class D and C handicaps all year?
Quote – “I don’t believe horse racing is any more corrupt than, say, the Tour De France”
I’d be really worried if I thought it was even 1/10th as corrupt as cycling’s blue riband.
Did the respective trainers of Holding Court and Lailani think at the start of their 3yo season they’d be running in Class D and C handicaps all year?
The flaw in your argument there of course is that Holding Court contested a Group 1 event before he ever ran in a handicap.
Zorro,
It was called Starjestic. The fact that it was trained by his father and had drifted from 4/5 to 13/8 in a three runner handicap chase was mere coincidence.
I was there – it was my one and only visit to the old Southwell NH track.
But you should know better – this sort of thing never happened before the arrival of betting exchanges and AW surfaces.
Did the respective trainers of Holding Court and Lailani think at the start of their 3yo season they’d be running in Class D and C handicaps all year?
The flaw in your argument there of course is that Holding Court contested a Group 1 event before he ever ran in a handicap.
Good point but I’m sure there are other examples.
Corm – the only part of the TDF that’s corrupt is the drug taking. Given racing is a sport that regularly has failed dope tests and where some countries even allow you to run whilst taking them it’s kind of hard to equate a few failed drug tests a year (and where the governing body are cleaning it up) with racing where a failed drug test means a slap on the wrist and a "don’t do it again" attitude.
Would also wonder what would have happened over the Endless Summer affair ie. Juddmonte changing the horses DOB had it been a smaller owner/breeder?
Do I believe there’s corruption in racing?
Undoubtedly! Wherever there’s money involved there will always be those who try to short-cut their way to it.Is corruption endemic in racing?
I don’t believe so, and I suggest that racing is a good deal straighter than it ever has been. Having begun my close interest in racing back in the 60s/70s there would be many trainers frequently ‘pulling strokes’ who simply wouldn’t have an earthly of getting away with it now. Monitoring and stewarding of races is infinitely better now than at any time in the sport’s history, though there is always room for improvement.Rob
Capt Price will be turning in his grave Rob…..but he was so good at it was he not? The Schweppes was the Daddy of them all I can still remember those who backed the likes of Elan and Hill House Bootlaces etc saying ."go on ya beauty" and the rest saying "Cheating Bstrds" The good old days what? But you are correct they would out the door in 5 minutes nowadays if as blatant as some of those were.
Due to the cruel and heartless theft of my betting bank by a variety of exchange layers, high street bookmakers, chinless trainers, and dribbling jockeys, I can’t bet at the moment. Can’t watch ATR or RUK. Can’t even go to Southwell. I missed my first meeting in a year and a half on Tuesday due to rejoining the ranks of the gainfully employed.
I miss horse racing already and it’s only been since Monday. *sigh*
You pigeons of doom wouldn’t half miss it too. Why beat up what you love? Talking stuff down only makes sure the next generation walks away. Look at the nightmare emerging in the US. A low double figure attendance last week at Aqueduct – and all over fifty.
Corm, good point earlier.
chinless trainers
So just to be clear, I take it you definitely aren’t including the 2 Pauls (Nicholls and Blockley) among this Montley Crew.
No, corruption is certainly not endemic in our sport.
As GH says the corruption that does go on is largely in the poorer grades. Where low prize money means it is difficult for connections to make a profit without a betting coup. Therefore certain unscrupulous trainers, jockeys and owners try to manipulate a good handicap mark.
It does go on occasionally in better races. Am sure there have been times connections have tried to pull the wool over the handicappers eyes in a fairly good race. So as to get a good mark for a top handicap.
Most trainers, jockeys and owners are trustworthy people who do a fine job. But I do wish those who are found guilty of cheating are not allowed back in to our sport. And that owners do not send horses for such trainers to train. No horses no trainer. There are so many trainers who keep within the rules who deserve an opportunity, without owners giving a second chance to those who have already transgressed. But I suppose some owners might be attracted to the thought of bending the rules or pulling wool.
When trainers are allowed back after a couple of years ban, it is not enough of a deterrent. Not only might these people do it again but: Some “law abiding” trainers might see a rival come back after a little time away and think the punishment is worth the risk of being found out. With benefits of breaking the rules so large.
Here are two instances where I’ve been racing and thought there was a case to answer:
In a two horse race at Wincanton the 1/14 shot’s jockey seemed to jump off after the fence. I was convinced I’d seen some skulduggery. However, when I got home I found out the jockey had had a fall in the previous race and actually broken his neck. A doctor had missed it and not until jumping the first fence in the next race did he feel the pain. So I was wrong.
At Fontwell, there was a race where no horse was good enough to even have a rating from Timeform. One had not run yet over fences. As they went to post I turned to a friend and said “why has that jockey got his stirrups higher than the rest”. Well, during the race I had my answer, or so I thought. He seemed to jump off. The horse made no mistake that I could see, kept straight as a dye, yet he went out of the side door. However, this race was looked in to by the authorities and he was cleared. So I have to except that I was mistaken, many others were mistaken too!
There is no evidence to say corruption is endemic. As many have said wherever there is money involved there will be some corruption, but do not believe there are many corrupt races. Probably fewer than one a week. Otherwise it would be impossible for punters to make a profit just by studying form alone.
Some punters think skulduggery is obvious when horses are well backed and others take a walk in the market. But there are many reasons for market moves. Sweating, fractious or unfit, poor coated, severe bridled or green horses in the paddock will be seen by those in the know and usually drift. (Unless it is already been allowed for in the market). A fit, relaxed, good coated horse likely to be backed. To post, one that pulls or has the wrong action for the ground will usually drift. Good actioned horses may be backed.
It is not surprising horses who have been identified as negatives in the paddock / to post (who are laid) go on to lose. And positives (who are backed) win.
As well as connections backing their own nags to win (shortening horses), there are good judges who identify those who’s form chance is greater than the price indicates (a good value bet). The opposite also occurs, laying horses. Then there is the punting sheep who follows the market, so one that is backed (or laid) by judges is then backed further, producing an even bigger steamer / drifter. Mr Chapman or McCrirrick go overboard, “someone somewhere knows something”, and it moves yet again. And looks even more suspicious, but is there a corrupt reason?
Yes, betting exchanges have made it easier for punters to profit from horses running poorly. But we now have two racing channels covering every race from every angle, and an easier paper trail back to the culprits. There are now more opportunities to cheat but it is also harder to get away with it. So I believe racing in Britain has never been straighter. I say “I believe” because we do not know how much used to go on without anyone hearing of it.
Though certain presenters looking in to possible offences perhaps give a false impression as to the scale of this problem.
I certainly would not put racing horses over too far / short, wrong ground, unfit (will come on for the race), green etc. as being wrong. It is up to the punter to identify these.
Mark
Value Is EverythingDo I believe there’s corruption in racing?
Undoubtedly! Wherever there’s money involved there will always be those who try to short-cut their way to it.Is corruption endemic in racing?
I don’t believe so, and I suggest that racing is a good deal straighter than it ever has been. Having begun my close interest in racing back in the 60s/70s there would be many trainers frequently ‘pulling strokes’ who simply wouldn’t have an earthly of getting away with it now. Monitoring and stewarding of races is infinitely better now than at any time in the sport’s history, though there is always room for improvement.The heart sank when I saw this thread but thankfully some wise and reasoned responses in the main.
My thoughts entirely Rob, with the emphasis on ‘thoughts’ as anyone ‘outside’ on this side of the fence cannot be sure, but if I believed otherwise I’d give up betting the horses and watching the races, as anyone who consistently moans about an epidemic of corruption in the sport really should.
Going off at a slight tangent but IMO the seedy side of racing is only amplified by the dodgy tipster – that public manifestation of nefarious practice with his ‘coups’, ‘stable information’ ‘contacts’ and ‘biggest bets of the year’: the type beloved of Teletext and glossy mailshots.
If the BHA are really serious about cleaning up the image of racing then why not clampdown on this nonsense by introducing a registration scheme that all tipsters must join in order to pursue their wish of selling bets for reward. Furthermore once registered they must submit all bets and stakes in advance to a BHA-monitered proofing service, the results of which can then be made public in, say, a weekly column in the RP.
The wheat would soon be sorted from the chaff, and a poor harvest it would no doubt prove to be.
A fine idea, Drone. Sadly, it would almost certainly be deemed cost-ineffective by the BHA.
The exchanges haven’t made a big difference to this issue IMO- bent yards are still bent, straight yards are still straight. The only difference is that the bent yards can now have their cake and eat it, so to speak, by laying the horse when it isn’t off as well as backing it on The Day.
Drone,
How can the BHA regulate? It would take too much work to know what price each horse actually was at the time of tipping. No tipster worth his name relies on SP’s as nobody knows if it is going to be value.
Mark
Value Is EverythingI’m not entirely sure what you’re getting at, Ginge, but if you’re talking about the proofing of tipping lines the Racing Post does it for some lines that wish to advertise in the paper and presumably they have a means of validating the prices stated by said tipsters.
How can the BHA regulate? It would take too much work to know what price each horse actually was at the time of tipping.
A flaw in my masterplan perhaps or is it?
One monitor with Betfair up (together with their invaluable trading history) and one with Oddschecker up, to c check available prices when tips are received.
Nothing’s foolproof but at the very least it would make tipsters a little more wary and there would be a public record of sorts as to how they perform, and would do away with the ghastly "profit to recommended stakes at advised price" blather so much advertising copy is riddled with
All pissing-in-the wind anyway I expect, as Friggo intimates
How can the BHA regulate? It would take too much work to know what price each horse actually was at the time of tipping.
A flaw in my masterplan perhaps or is it?
One monitor with Betfair up (together with their invaluable trading history) and one with Oddschecker up, to c check available prices when tips are received.
Nothing’s foolproof but at the very least it would make tipsters a little more wary and there would be a public record of sorts as to how they perform, and would do away with the ghastly "profit to recommended stakes at advised price" blather so much advertising copy is riddled with
All pissing-in-the wind anyway I expect, as Friggo intimates
I think the plan is fundamentally flawed Drone.
Not least how can the BHA have any authority over tipsters when tipsters are not licensed.
If you are proposing a licence scheme then how do you define a tipster?
If, for example, I do a race preview in a hospitality box before racing are you suggesting I should be licensed and proof my tips with the BHA in advance?
Or if I share tips with friends and they give me a share of their winnings as a thank you?
What you suggest does sound good in theory and I am not criticising the general principle – I am struggling to see how it could be enforced.
As an example at Royal Ascot I did a tipping preview session in a corporate box. However because the organiser of the day happened to be my brother-in-law I obviously did not charge. Next door there was someone providing a similar preview but they were being paid to do it.
How would your plan differentiate between the two, if at all.
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