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I believe that corruption levels are inversely proportional to the class of race.
………and in direct proportion to one’s losses.
Its common knowledge that in days gone by, before T.V cameras could capture the whole race, Jump Jockeys
would literally jump off their mounts out in the country. I was stood at a fence out there in the country at Southwell one day photographing chasers,
when a well known jockey literally jumped out the side door.2 weeks later
the same combination won in a hack canter over C/D.Whilst I don’t consider racing to be 100% whiter than white, I do get exasperated by the kind of "it’s common knowledge they’re all at it" evidence-free nonsense like that posted above.
So, what did the authorities say when you reported these offences?
Don’t tell me you didn’t actually get around to doing that.
Like to share the names of those jumping-off jockeys with us?
No? Well, if you want to do it gradually, just the jockey, horse and race at Southwell will do for starters. Or just scan in and post the photograph.
Or are you just making up stories to make yourself feel important?
Corruption in racing is not endemic I don’t think but a lack of urgency in dealing with it with it is endemic. Those who have been found guilty are always welcomed back with with a warm embrace by insiders. That’s what sickens me.
Earlier this year R Winston was a guest on the morning line and instead of being hammered he just had to deal with Thommo and his unctious compliments.
I’m still getting over McKeowen and his apparent fresh air whip action.
- Total Posts 17716
Its common knowledge that in days gone by, before T.V cameras could capture the whole race, Jump Jockeys
would literally jump off their mounts out in the country. I was stood at a fence out there in the country at Southwell one day photographing chasers,
when a well known jockey literally jumped out the side door.2 weeks later
the same combination won in a hack canter over C/D.Whilst I don’t consider racing to be 100% whiter than white, I do get exasperated by the kind of "it’s common knowledge they’re all at it" evidence-free nonsense like that posted above.
So, what did the authorities say when you reported these offences?
Don’t tell me you didn’t actually get around to doing that.
Like to share the names of those jumping-off jockeys with us?
No? Well, if you want to do it gradually, just the jockey, horse and race at Southwell will do for starters. Or just scan in and post the photograph.
Or are you just making up stories to make yourself feel important?
And wtf is "out there in the country" at Southwell?
Nice ripostes, Reet.
Corm, I’m disappointed in you. All you’ve done here is thrown the seedcorn onto the lawn to attract the voracious pigeons of doom. Are you playing devil’s advocate here? I believe so (I’m still disappointed – in a nice way btw).
The question in wrong. Is SPORT corrupt? Are HUMANs corrupt? I don’t believe horse racing is any more corrupt than, say, the Tour De France, or some New Delhi Kabbadi tournament. I’d rather bet on a horse than a football match on motivation grounds alone.
As Reet brilliantly intimates, our pockets have the loudest voice.
Horse racing is no more corrupt that football – a division 2 match last year between Accrington and Bury was the subject of massive price changes and official scrutiny. I can say no more.
Italian football in April. Snooker – a real hot potato. Cricket in the nineties. I’m sure our American friends will talk about College football – I’m told more than one refurbishment has been paid for by from the proceeds of a "warm" match-up. Boxing. Golf. You name it, there is a story of corruption in every stadia and in every field of sporting combat worldwide.
Racing takes place seven days a week. We’re pro-punters. It’s in our face like a rainy day in winter and we can bet 24 hours a day if we wish. It’s called stimulus satiation. Our feelings of loss are amplified and it’s all guaranteed to get on top of us eventually. A break, Corm?
I beleive that there is corruption in all walks of life but in racing it is always there because thats the way racing is, but to be fair I dont really care, I’ll still bet it anyway because I still prefer it to betting on anything else, as in almost all other betting mediums the corruption is in the bookies pricings.
- Total Posts 17716
The fact is that the demand for FOBTs has had a profound effect on sports betting in general in that punters crave an endless supply of markets in the same way they do every spin of a roulette wheel. There was a time when you could bet on the outcome of an event and little more, but with upwards of a dozen markets available for a single race, match or series, could we make it any easier for the corrupt few?
Take cricket as a recently exposed example. Aside from the usual Team A to beat Team B and series score markets, you can ‘bet in running’ on the next wicket, the method of dismissal and even the number of runs scored in an over. Is there any easier bet to rig than the runs scored in an over?
That’s not to say that corruption is any more prevalent in cricket than it is in horseracing or indeed any other sport, but it shows that demand has made it far too easy for the less decent members of society to gain access to almost limitless supplies of money. Authorities, on the whole, are incapable of dealing with the situations both they (in devising more and more pointless tournaments) and bookmakers have created, and as such supposedly unexpected results are immediately treated with extreme caution.
Harry Findlay said in an interview with RUK last year that English football was as straight as it comes. That may be true, but I would also have said that of Italian football ten years ago before the paying off of referees was uncovered. I don’t think the media are entirely helpful in such matters as the dramatisation of race/match fixing only serves to fuel the fire of mass hysteria, but when any underhanded dealings are a) easy to hide, b) easy to profit from and c) go undetected and unpunished by those charged with policing the respective sport, is it any wonder one cries foul at the first opportunity?
As far as horseracing goes, it’s difficult to say quite how wide-spread corruption is. I’m firmly of the opinion that even the best trainers are party to ‘less than permissable’ practices at times, but would suggest that the ratio of deceptive runners to legitimate runners is minute. But, taking NH as an example, is the domination of the likes of Paul Nicholls, Alan King and Nicky Henderson almost forcing the hand of other industry workers? Is there now no other option for some than to resort to the selfish actions which have seen Paul Blockley and Dean McKeown publicly humiliated?
I could never be so bold as to moan about corruption unless I was whiter than white myself. For as long as man has a bottom hole, corruption will always be there. I just get on with it and hope some dodgy offers come my way soon.
Crooks? Corm….exactly what do you men by crooks.
If you are asking if there are outside bodies taking 100’s of 1000’s of pounds out of racing by fixing etc. I would say no!!
If they are who’s paying up and staying stoom and accepting it. Ladbrokes? Paddy Power? Willliam Hill? of course not. The on course of course communication is instant these days and those alarm bells ring way to quick for anyone to get away with a fast one if it’s illegal.
Within racing circles do jockeys have punters? Of course they do.
Do jockeys make money from laying horses?………very very few and the ones that do are well known to almost every other jockey…There are a couple of crackers known to almost everyone within the game that never came to light publicly but they are few and far between.
Note: I am talking National Hunt racing here as my involvement in the flat was limited.
Do they jump off horse? (Had to stick that in) Only in some people’s imagination.
Are many horses stopped? Very very few are stopped as such but many do not run to obtain the best possible position. This is just a fact of life you me and everyone should learn to live with. If a trainer thinks a horse needs a bit more time or is not fit enough to do himslef justice he will issue insructions like. "Win if you can but don’t knock him about" " He’s short of a gallop and needs a bit of time" etc etc. A stable jockey will often tell a trainer the horse is a bit weak we should give him a quite one…that’s just racing and it will never change.
Then you have the touches with a bit of genius behind them. Owners Trainers and jockeys can come up with some cracking ideas on how to get those extra few points when going for a touch…personally I think that is one of the things that makes National Hunt racing so great….best thing in the world is landing a touch and I don’t mean for the cash….sure the cash is great but it’s the carck of knowing you did it……bring a horse along quitely and let him come to himslef….he tell you when he’s ready and then you have a right go….can be done and is done without stopping a horse as such….Granted punters can back these horses expecting them to win or be placed and they have absolutely no chance of collecting………understand that, accept it, or get out the kicthen is my advice.
For me the word "Gambling" means exactly that….we should all realize a trainer isn’t go call you and tell you a horse needs the run….they are not going to give a horse who needs a run a hard race to obtain no better than a place to protect a punter who has backed him EW……in horses racing you makes your choice and takes your chances…accept it!
Mr Doright might wish or want racing different but it is just not going to happen not as long as those within the game are human.
It’s a great great game and I for one love it as it is.
Hi gang
having watched horse racing, nearly every day, for 27 years…. it becomes quite obvious when a jockey rides to win a race.
Also…….
Sometimes it takes a trusted top jockey to do the reverse, namely ride a "STINKER".
Training winners is mostly about timing, therefore… (particularly in handicaps) skullduggery can be the order of the day. Working out when they are trying to win is all part of the fascination for me.
"THATS RACING!"
The betting market is the best witness, but only detailed analysis will loosen it’s lips. I am very interested in exploring this data pool.
byefrom
carlisleI believe that corruption levels are inversely proportional to the class of race.
………and in direct proportion to one’s losses.
In that case, every race is bent, reet.
I dont think its fair to charge what is a very relevant question and probably along with the horse welfare issue, racings biggest challenges going forward as pocket talk.
I had a similar soul searching corruption in racing moment on the 1st of March this year, a moment that seriously made me question whether this game was worth all the time and effort.
I had watched with interest the pre race market moves for the 4.30 at Taunton on Feb 28 and given those moves took an even greater interest in the way the race panned out. The Fracsoft software I own allowed me to download and play back in second by second timelapse the Betfair inrunning market for the race and as I went through it I remember the feeling of complete disbelief as I watched the numbers reveal a sickening truth about horseracing, even the game’s winners, the game’s top of the tree, the people you look up to in racing are in my opinion at work on the exchanges. A moment of clarity to say the least.
However Cheltenham was around the corner, I dusted myself off and moved on, still totally bewitched by this sport or more to the point the horses in this sport, the human element in horseracing bar Tony Mc Coy contains none who come close to the values displayed by my sporting heros Ayrton Senna and Sean Kelly (the cyclist).
During a recent 9 month sabbatical from work I spent 12-14 hours a day, 7 days a week, studying, analyzing, reading, betting and basically living the sport. My conclusions…..
– The sport is not systematically corrupt from the top down but contains cheating trainers and jockeys every day imo
– The biggest names in the game as just as liable to pull a fast one as the bottom feeders
– 99% of races do not go off with a pre ordained result, Betfair market efficency is proof of that, although in my opinion Conor O Dywer’s and Tony Dobbins final races were both fixed
– The racing industry is very conscious of how the sport depends on betting for a large part of its income and will always run horses on merit often enough to have us keep the faith
– Racing woud be better off without the facility to lay horses, although I would drop out rather than defer to the only other current option, the bookmakers
– The prizemoney argument in this part of the world is bogus, Irish racing is less straight than its UK counterpart imo
– The BHB is doing its best but lacks the resources to be highly effective in the fight against corruption
– The exchange owners are turning a blind eye to most of it
– The racing media, perhaps the sports greatest tool in the fight against corruption are disgracefully turning a bling eye to itHow to fight against corruption systematically
– Life bans for cheating owners, trainers and jockeys. Zero tolerance, no exceptions
– All horses weighed after entering the preparade ringHow to fight corruption in your betting
– Selective betting stick to the quality racing in both codes, where breeding value, and prestige matter more to wealthy owners, correct interpretation of the formbook and a good knowledge of each horse’s characteristics can still make the game pay, although its quite sad you have to ignore 85% of the sport with this approach and this is perhaps racing’s greatest indictment.
– Do what I do, play in every race, find a non formbook edge, the safety in numbers approach ensures your playing in plenty of races where non triers will work for you as often as they do against you and you’ll often run into runners who are back on a going day after ¨ a quiet period¨. Horseracing does still respond to analysis, as long as it does I’m happy to continue.
FOF- thats a very good post. Your ability to delight and frustrate in equal measure on the forum is endless
A bit of a simplistic answer, I’m afraid, but corruption will always exist where money is involved and where there is a quick buck to be gained.
In racing, why do outside influences take advantage and some jockeys take the bait ? Easy – temptation, allied to need and greed.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Good post Cav.
I am intrigued by the Taunton race, however, and also the software which allows you to do that.
Do I believe there’s corruption in racing?
Undoubtedly! Wherever there’s money involved there will always be those who try to short-cut their way to it.Is corruption endemic in racing?
I don’t believe so, and I suggest that racing is a good deal straighter than it ever has been. Having begun my close interest in racing back in the 60s/70s there would be many trainers frequently ‘pulling strokes’ who simply wouldn’t have an earthly of getting away with it now. Monitoring and stewarding of races is infinitely better now than at any time in the sport’s history, though there is always room for improvement.Rob
When I saw this thread last night I thought I must reply in the morning.
However Rob’s reply immediately above encapsulates everything I was going to say.
Yes where there are humans and money involved there will always be the scope for corruption, racing included.
However with the current scrutiny I believe racing is far cleaner than it ever has been, though I would never be naïve enough to think it can ever be eradicated completely.
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