- This topic has 231 replies, 47 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
6/1 Boylesports for First Leiut, is looking very nice at this moment, especially with the ground looking to be kicking off as good.
First Grumeti, now Invictus. Urgh. Reminds me of NTD in 2004. Baron Windrush, Ollie Magern and Ambobo all injured in the days leading up to the Festival. With the amount of horses who don’t see out their careers with King (Karabak, VPU, Katchit, etc), you have to wonder what he’s doing with them sometimes.
First Grumeti, now Invictus. Urgh. Reminds me of NTD in 2004. Baron Windrush, Ollie Magern and Ambobo all injured in the days leading up to the Festival. With the amount of horses who don’t see out their careers with King (Karabak, VPU, Katchit, etc), you have to wonder what he’s doing with them sometimes.
Agreed. You can add Blazing Bailey, Franchoek, Halcon Genelardais and My Way De Solzen. All had their great year or two then developed bad attitude or totally lost form.
Alan King’s horses certainly seem to lack the longevity that Nicholls, Pipe and others can give their horses.
Well none of those lasted longer than 3 years, so expect to see Medermit being utterly useless next season.
To be fair to King it is the type of horse he goes for sometimes. French Breds usually peak a year or two before the Irish and British.
The 4 year olds he buys are either french breds or mediocre flat types and the the flat types tend to have a very limited progression. he gets them to peak quickly but the stagnate usually.
I don’t think the criticism is all that warranted regarding King.
Most of the horses listed have excuses or reasons behind their lack of percieved progression.
Many of King’s juveniles tend to be ready made types from the flat who lack much scope to progress. Katchit only won a Champion Hurdle because it was a dire renewal. What has Osana done since for example? Franchoek/Penzance were never going to progress from their Juvenile seasons.
Horses like Halcon and Blazing Bailey are poor examples too. Staying hurdlers tend to lose their form at a relatively early age, and Blazing Bailey had been heavily raced at a young age. Halcon performed admirably for several years but lumping large weights around whilst needing specific conditions and not being good enough for graded races made life difficult for him.
The only major disappointment was My Way De Solzen.
As for these injuries, well Grumeti is fine, but injuries happen. All the top yards have them, and often they are unavoidable and happen in regular daily activities. It just so happens this injury happened close to the Festival.
People expecting situations like this not to happen each year are deluded. Horses get injured.
First Grumeti, now Invictus. Urgh. Reminds me of NTD in 2004. Baron Windrush, Ollie Magern and Ambobo all injured in the days leading up to the Festival. With the amount of horses who don’t see out their careers with King (Karabak, VPU, Katchit, etc), you have to wonder what he’s doing with them sometimes.
Agreed. You can add Blazing Bailey, Franchoek, Halcon Genelardais and My Way De Solzen. All had their great year or two then developed bad attitude or totally lost form.
Alan King’s horses certainly seem to lack the longevity that Nicholls, Pipe and others can give their horses.
What absolute nonsense. Have you ever looked at the number of horses discarded from ditcheat every year? And as for the Pipe operation jebus. Alan King has the same number go wrong as anyone else. An exceptional trainer who has been unlucky with the bug. VPU won an Arkle and a champion chase which would be good enough for most trainers. Katchit only horse since Persian war to win the triumph Hurdle and win the champion the next year. Must be an idiot!!!???!!!
Some of the races King’s horses won were just farcical. VPU won an Arkle because he was getting weight from Monet’s Garden. Then managed to win the worst/2nd worst Champion Chase this century.
Persian War was winning Champion Hurdles at 6 and 7. What did Katchit achieve at 6 & 7? Ridiculously weak Champion Hurdle he won. Is there anybody who thinks Sizing Europe wouldn’t have won?
My Way De Solzen barged into Golden Sword and still managed to keep the race somehow, incidentally winning the only World Hurdle since 2000 that didn’t have a Baracouda, Inglis Drever or Big Buck’s. He also won an Arkle where 2 rivals who were cruising fell at the 2nd last.
I don’t care how many horses are discarded from those yards – not all horses are good. The good ones generally stay good for a while. King has not managed to keep a good one going in his career.
Halcon G finished by 9, Katchit finished by 5, MWDS finished by 7, VPU finished by 8, Franchoek finished by 4. Will be interesting to see what the 8yo Medermit achieves next season.
Some of the races King’s horses won were just farcical. VPU won an Arkle because he was getting weight from Monet’s Garden. Then managed to win the worst/2nd worst Champion Chase this century.
At time that Arkle was considered very hot. He did win a very weak Champion Chase definitely and he proved to be more effective over further.
Persian War was winning Champion Hurdles at 6 and 7. What did Katchit achieve at 6 & 7? Ridiculously weak Champion Hurdle he won. Is there anybody who thinks Sizing Europe wouldn’t have won?
Completely agreed. Not King’s fault however. He trained him very well and took advantage of a weak crop. He was never going to be a multiple champion.
My Way De Solzen barged into Golden Sword and still managed to keep the race somehow, incidentally winning the only World Hurdle since 2000 that didn’t have a Baracouda, Inglis Drever or Big Buck’s. He also won an Arkle where 2 rivals who were cruising fell at the 2nd last.
My Way De Solzen was a very high class horse, and he’d have given the mentioned names a good run for their money. He’d have probably won that Arkle anyway, but i can’t prove that. Certainly his fall from grace was very disappointing.
I don’t care how many horses are discarded from those yards – not all horses are good. The good ones generally stay good for a while. King has not managed to keep a good one going in his career.
Nicholls gets rid of alot of good horses, that are beginning to regress. All top trainers have this problem to a degree. With King it’s accentuated due to the type of horse he often has ; ready made small Juveniles.
Halcon G finished by 9, Katchit finished by 5, MWDS finished by 7, VPU finished by 8, Franchoek finished by 4. Will be interesting to see what the 8yo Medermit achieves next season.
Franchoek was never going to progress. Citing Francheok is ridiculous, given he had absolutely no chance of progressing into a graded open company Hurdler
I agree about Franchoek but he and Katchit had very similar profiles. Who’s to say what could’ve happened with a different trainer? Look what Celestial Halo’s achieved since.
At the time, yes, VPU’s Arkle was extremely highly regarded. Missed That won the Powers before passing away, Monet’s obviously was high class but the rest were very poor.
What absolute nonsense. Have you ever looked at the number of horses discarded from ditcheat every year? And as for the Pipe operation jebus. Alan King has the same number go wrong as anyone else. An exceptional trainer who has been unlucky with the bug. VPU won an Arkle and a champion chase which would be good enough for most trainers. Katchit only horse since Persian war to win the triumph Hurdle and win the champion the next year. Must be an idiot!!!???!!!
I understand that moderate horses tend to be less physically solid and go wrong, peak very early or whatever for any trainer. I just think it is worrying how many of Alan King’s top horses retire so young, usually with attitude or physical problems. No steady decline of ability, but suddenly unhappy horses losing 30lbs of talent.
You have to admit that Paul Nicholls and David Pipe are great at keeping their best horses at the top of their game season after season, likewise at bringing horses back from seasons off.
Kauto Star/Denman/Noland/Master Minded/See More Business/Neptune Collonges/Big Bucks/Cenkos/Our Vic etc: All kept and keep going season after season at the top of their game. Kauto Star’s revival, See More Business’ teenage heroics and Earthmover’s repeat Foxhunters’ win were particular miracles of training. Many of those other horses have returned from seasons away with injury, heart scares etc. There are inevitable burnouts as you say, but a vast number of horses enjoy exceptionally long careers at Ditcheat. All horses with different profiles too. Ex-flat, French-breds, traditional jumpers, they all come the same.
Can you name an Alan King horse who has stayed at its peak for as long as those?
Voy Por Ustedes:
Brilliant from late 2005-early 2009. Switched to Nicky Henderson after disappointing from then, vets discovered serious back problems, which had been undiagnosed for ‘probably over a year’ while racing for Alan King. Horse never regained his form and retired aged 10, a broken animal.
Halcon Genelardais:
Heroic staying chaser (and former useful novice hurdler) from early 2005 to late 2008. Attitude turned very sour from 2009 afterwards. Refused to pass Joe Lively in Pillar Chase, pulled himself up in Gold Cup, never the same again. Retired in 2010 as a 10 year old. Returned as a shadow of former self in hunter chases in 2011, retired again at 11.
Franchoek:
Aggressively campaigned in juvenile hurdles 2007/2008. Good 2nd to Celestial Halo in Triumph Hurdle. Understandably struggled the next year but seemingly held some of his form. Finished very weakly given easy tasks every run over fences 2009/2010, attitude completely opposite to 2007/2008. Seemingly retired in 2010, an utterly dispirited horse.
My Way De Solzen:
Brilliant mid 2004-mid 2007, including winning World Hurdle despite not being a strong stayer and Arkle Chase despite many saying he needed further. Unwisely, Alan King challenged Kauto Star with MWDS when the horse was not fully fit. Never the same again, often weakening very quickly. Retired 2009 aged 9. Returned as an effective point-to-pointer for another trainer after a break.
Blazing Bailey:
To be fair, probably not the best example. Still had a pretty odd career. 2006-early 2008 an almost top-class hurdler, 2009 and 2010 in the wilderness, two good wins in 2011. Absolutely sour ever since and hated every stride last Saturday. Retired aged 10 with attitude issues.
Katchit:
You have to admire Alan King for how he won so much with Katchit, no dispute there. Average flat horse, amazing how he won the Triumph after being on the go in summer juvenile hurdles. And the Champion Hurdle too: incredible! He has regressed dramatically ever since, but that was probably inevitable. Carrying 11-10 or 11-12 around every race when you’re too small to carry a bag of sugar must take its toll.
Some of them you could say were unlucky, some just aggressively campaigned and some (MWDS, VPU in particular) trainer error. I don’t think I am talking ‘nonsense’, but of course you are entitled to your opinion.
With Kauto a doubt, Grand Crus will probably end up going for Gold. That screws up my ante post on him, so I need something to cover the bet. Bob’s Worth is too short considering what he’s achieved over fences, Sir Des Champs will hopefully be going Jewson, First Lieutenant is also too short judged on his chase form.
This leaves Invictus and Join Together. Join Together hasn’t run this year, which is a vital stat in this race. Invictus has, and also was rated less than 135 as a hurdler, which is also vital. Plus, connections will be chasing the 60k Plumpton bonus, so they’ll not be messing about sending him for this.
Invictus it is, 9/1.
Anyone giving Join Together even a "snowballs" chance in The RSA should check the form of GALWAY JACK in The Hunter Chase at Leicester this afternoon
Invictus ruled out for RSA.
Kev, that’s a scunner for people with decent prices. A good run was expected of him as well. These things happen all the time. It could be a long weekend !
With Invictus out, and Kauto seemingly Gold Cup bound, surely Grands Crus will be even more likely to go to this?
The RSA chase result might hinge on the participation of current favourite Grands Crus, around 2/1 for the race just now. But there must be a reasonable chance he will miss the race for the Gold Cup. Even if he doesn’t, his freegoing style could see him emptying up the hill.
Bobs Worth is 2nd fav, at around 3/1. His official rating (a professional handicapper’s assessment of his ability) is 151. Cannington Brook (CB) who is rated 1lb inferior at 150 is a 50/1 chance (non-runner, money back with Coral) and that simply must be taken by anyone who places value at the heart of their betting strategy.
Last time out CB won a 20 furlong race by 35 lengths. Before that he was 5th in the Welsh Grand National, a fine run in stamina-sapping conditions, especially coming just ten days after CB’s victory in the Tommy Whittle ‘chase at Haydock. These last three runs have been in heavy ground and I guess the bookmakers have him down as a slowcoach handicapper.
But he has a decent piece of form on good ground when 3rd in a Grade 1 hurdle at Aintree 2 years ago. The Racing Post summarisers had this to say about that run:
This was a fine effort from Cannington Brook, who started out the season over fences. Easy winner of a weak maiden hurdle at Ludlow latest, he is highly regarded by his trainer and showed why here, leading up the chasing pack and travelling well into the straight, but just lacking a telling change of pace on the ground. He could go a long way returned to fences next term.
The form comments of the first seven of his chase runs are peppered with ‘mistake’, ‘blundered’, ‘not fluent’, but he has been error-free in his last three runs and seems to be improving with every race.
His trainer, Colin Tizzard has been in sizzling form of late and given that Grands Crus might not turn up, Bobs Worth is probably over-rated as a fencer (and certainly under-priced), the Irish star Bog Warrior is reportedly staying at home, and the fancied Invictus is out with an injury, Cannington Brook’s price looks a major rick by Coral (Ladbrokes go 25s).
CB holds entries in two handicaps as well, but his twin attributes of speed and stamina, allied to his improved jumping, give him a fine chance in the RSA in my opinion. Let’s hope he lines up there and lands the value bet of the festival.
What value is there in backing a horse whose last 4 career starts have come on heavy? What value is there in backing a horse beaten 43L by Time For Rupert at Cheltenham? What value is there in backing a horse beaten 15L by the NH Chase 4-mile favourite Tea For Three? What value is there in backing a horse beaten 31L by the slowest horse who ever lived (Le Beau Bai)?
Will be lapped along with Join Together.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.