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“Destructification” just became my TRF word of the week.
It certainly destructifies any other contenders for the title.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Quite agree. And being ‘destructified’ over a “prolonged” period to boot! Christ on a bike!
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From memory we have Sprinter Sacre on 190, Flyingbolt 210, and Arkle 212.
If you believe the Arkle figure, look at Flyingbolt’s form, then read comments from Pat Taffe and others, 210 isn’t out of court for Flyingbolt, as I’m sure the work experience kid would confirm.
I also doubt that Flyingbolt could give Sprinter Sacre so much weight and a beating. But I do believe the former would beat the latter giving some level of weight to him. Exactly how much I wouldn’t like to say.
I have a particular fondness for Flyingbolt. He was only 7 when brucellosis took him out of the game, and he was a shadow of his former self upon his return.
I feel a teardrop coming on now.
We are omitting horses who would have been champions at 2 miles. I remember Pendil giving weight and a comfortable beating to Tingle Creek over 2miles at Sandown, Dawn Run defeating the then champion 2 miler Buck House, and of course Kauto Star; connections instead aimed them at the more prestigious. competitive, and lucrative staying chases
“From memory we have Sprinter Sacre on 190, Flyingbolt 210, and Arkle 212.”
Close, but SS is on 192p.
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Sprinter Sacre at his peak (first Champion Chase victory) is the best 2m chaser I have seen in my lifetime.
While it’s just about possible to conceive of a marginally better chaser existing either in the past or future, I too find it hard to accept he could have received a stone and still been beaten by any fellow racehorse at 2m.
However, I might say similar about Kauto Star (191) at 3m at the peak of his powers yet, whenever I remind myself of the weights carried and the career histories then sit down and watch again on YouTube what Arkle did to Mill House (also 191) et al at Sandown Park, and the manner in which he did it, I find that 212 eminently easy to accept.
Kauto Star and Denman both had stand-out ratings in their era and were also stable companions, yet their numbers never come under critical scrutiny.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Ian, I don’t think that anyone is debating that Arkle and Flyingbolt were the best chasers of their era, its just the idea that the two of them were so far ahead of everything that has come since.
I suspect Arkle was probably about Kauto/Denman/Dessie in terms of how good he actually was. I also suspect the problem might actually have been that Timeform’s psychedelic sixties tea boy might have significantly overvalued Mill House!
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So don't run, just like the others always do
“Kauto Star and Denman both had stand-out ratings in their era and were also stable companions, yet their numbers never come under critical scrutiny.”
Its a fair point, but they aren’t rated 17lb+ better than any other Chaser who ever drew breath.
The sheer amount of superiority Flyingbolt and Arkle are given in ratings just doesn’t ring true. To me at least.
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Something that I believe is often overlooked in the “Arkle and Flyingbolt v the rest” debate is that improved training methods, diet and medicine mean that the average horse now is much fitter than was the case sixty years ago.
Essentially, a lot of what those two great horses were beating was, by today’s standards, dross.
Please, let’s give Kauto Star some more credit. How many multiple Gold Cup, King George and BF Chase winners win TWO Tingle Creeks with so much authority from decent yardsticks?
Thank you Colin, much appreciated PM from a kindred spirit.
JacThings turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...“Something that I believe is often overlooked in the “Arkle and Flyingbolt v the rest” debate is that improved training methods, diet and medicine mean that the average horse now is much fitter than was the case sixty years ago.
Essentially, a lot of what those two great horses were beating was, by today’s standards, dross.”
But surely Arkle and Mill House were subjected to the same training methods in their day?
I don’t think they were beating “dross,” merely horses which were no more unfit than they were.
The collateral formlines which link the years point to these monster ratings, alleged psychedelic Timeform trainees notwithstanding.
That said, I share TTC’s doubts for the reasons he gives.
Kauto Star and Denman do indeed have high – but plausible – ratings.
Arkle has a rating which sees him hammering Kauto Star by 20 lengths.
Flyingbolt has a rating which sees him crucifying Sprinter Sacre by 15.
That’s a big ask in the credibility stakes on both counts.
Maybe Mill House is the key here?
A decent young Cheltenham Gold Cup winner before Arkle won emerged, but never a 191 horse?
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"“But surely Arkle and Mill House were subjected to the same training methods in their day?”
I assume you meant Flyingbolt here.
The big two were clearly around three stones better than the other top horses of the time, with the exception of peak Mill House.
But if those horses would be the equivalent of, say, 130 horses now, that puts Arkle and Flyingbolt as 175-ish horses by today’s standards and how much better they would be with modern methods is open to debate, given that they were clearly freaks (it’s well known that Arkle’s heart was far bigger than that of the average horse).
Your assumption was correct – sorry.
“Freaks” or not, I’m struggling with the notion 1960s training methods adversely impacted on the horses Arkle and Flyingbolt ran against more than on the duo themselves.
While I accept today’s horses are fitter and perform accordingly, I don’t think that entitles them to higher ratings or to downgrade horses from the past.
Kauto Star taken back in time to the 1960s would suffer from the drop to 1960s methods, Arkle brought forward in time to the modern era would benefit from today’s methods.
The two cancel each other out for me.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"“Kauto Star taken back in time to the 1960s would suffer from the drop to 1960s methods…”
But Kauto Star was such a naturally gifted horse that he would have thrashed all his opponents by miles every time.
Some horses are just that good.
IMHO, Sprinter Sacre is the best 2 miler I’ve ever seen, and he absolutely oozed charisma too, a proper champion. Arkle was the first racehorse I remember seeing (on tv!) and was so awesome he will always be the best chaser in my book. Had a quick google re Champion Chase and hadn’t realised Crisp won the Champion Chase in 1971, then of course 2 years later was runner up in the National giving 23lbs to Red Rum.
Jac
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