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Fair enough. The allowances split opinion. There must be some science to it, one would hope.
For races such as The Arc I would like to see levels, including doing away with 3yo allowances – but I do not have any statistics to back up why I am right to wish this was so. Just a sporting instinct to want a clear-cut result of whom is the very best.
I digress (as usual)…..
BUY THE SUN
Quality debate.
What did Enable get when she won all those Group 1s?
3lb.
Probably worth a couple of lengths over 1m4f.
7lb over 2m plus, especially when the ground is testing, is surely worth more – five to seven lengths, I’d say.
It’s a weapon and a half for a decent mare, so much so that, temperament and the risk of being in season notwithstanding, I often happily bet on mares over Jumps.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Precisely, Marlingford. She may not be a “great” but, as a winner of the Champion Chase – A race that hasn’t really had any Rock On Ruby/Lord Windemere “how did that horse win that race?” moments over the past 20 odd years – she is clearly a “very good”.
And, as someone who has recently become Middle-Aged & Crazy, it’s LOVELY to be referred to as young.
BlueSky @pghenn.bsky.social
So don't run, just like the others always do
I am sure Enable carried the best part of a stone less than the older horses when she won the King George. They faced an impossible task.
I can see the point of immature three year olds getting a weight allowance in the summer. However, I agree with TTC about how the Arc should be run at level weights. Why should three year olds still be getting an allowance in the autumn?
I do not believe Youmzain was a better horse than Sea The Stars – but strictly speaking on the weights he was. Remove the allowance and there is no argument.
CAS, why don’t you believe Youmzain was better? You’ve suggested that’s what the evidence shows for Arc day at least.
Not sure why Sea The Stars is being extended leeway that PTKO isn’t.
“And, as someone who has recently become Middle-Aged & Crazy, it’s LOVELY to be referred to as young.”
Pleasure.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Sea The Stars had a less than clear run and it took a superb ride from Michael Kinane to get him home. With a clearer run, I think he would have won more convincingly.
Funny how we all see a different race at times.
Sea The Stars in the Arc was IMO one of those races where jockey error actually facilitated seeing the true greatness of the horse.
In the same way that Tom Queally allowed Frankel to bolt with him at an insane pace in the 2,000 Guineas, and was consequently the only winner of the race in my lifetime that had the race won literally by the Bushes, the usually excellent Mick Kinane IMO made the rare error of allowing the colt to lose his place and wind up an absurd amount out of his ground, yet Sea The Stars was so brilliant he still picked off an admittedly very average Arc field with ultimately astonishing ease.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Basically, when all is said and done, she was a horse who did me a favour a couple of years on the bounce at Cheltenham (sorry for the aftertiming) at big prices and I’m glad to see her retire in one piece.
I’m looking forward, if I’m spared, to seeing the likes of Boilover and Mister Tea do their thing around Cheltenham in a few years time.
BlueSky @pghenn.bsky.social
So don't run, just like the others always do
“Sea The Stars in the Arc was IMO one of those races where jockey error actually facilitated seeing the true greatness of the horse.”
Point taken. I meant to say strong rather than superb ride. Kinane almost lifted him home eventually but he did have him too far back.
“sorry for the aftertiming”
Though the world’s fiercest critic of aftertimers, I am also the world’s biggest hypocrite, hence possibly the world’s biggest aftertimer myself.
Indeed, I have been known to practice this most ignoble of arts up to 45 years after the race.
If she won you money (twice), I can understand the attachment!
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"It was a spirited defence, tbf, IMO.
I love these timeless debates.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"From fivelongdays:
“If there are three tiers of Champion Chase Winners (The MEGABEAST tier, the awesome tier – Master Minded, Sizing Europe, Moscow Flyer, Altior, Azertyuiop, probably Big Zep, Voy Por Ustedes and Energ…this year’s winner – and the rest), then she is in the top half of the third tier. But she is still in that list and she beat some good horses to win her CC.”
That’s a touch off-topic but so is this.
You cannot have a serious debate concerning the relative merits of Champion Chase winners without mentioning a beast that would have eaten your list for breakfast, albeit he was by no means a 2m specialist.
I find the idea Flyingbolt could give 17lb and a beating to a peak Sprinter Sacre highly unlikely personally.
As i also do that the two best chasers (by miles!) in the history of the sport just happened to live next door to each other and be racing at the same time. I reckon the Timeform ratings bloke at that time probably lived on magic mushrooms and G&T’s.
BUY THE SUN
“You cannot have a serious debate concerning the relative merits of Champion Chase winners without mentioning a beast that would have eaten your list for breakfast, albeit he was by no means a 2m specialist.”
You could also bring Desert Orchid into the equation, but he wasn’t exactly a 2m specialist either.
I excluded both he and Flyingbolt for that precise reason.
As I’m sure you, like TTC, know, Seasider – but some others might not – Flyingbolt remains Timeform’s second-highest rated Chaser of all time, with only Arkle ahead of him.
That said, I share TTC’s doubts, though every time I do think those ratings of 212 and 208 must be inflated, footage of Arkle’s Gallagher Gold Cup victory at Sandown Park sets me straight, about “Himself” at least.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Ah heck, I shoulda mentioned that I was talking about 21st century Champion Vhase records. Nuff respect to Flyingbolt (I do question the accuracy of Timeform’s rating, but he was clearly a legit great) and, while we’re at it, Remittance Man, Viking Flagship and Badsworth Boy.
The MEGABEAST would have annihilatified them beneath his hooves in a bout of prolonged destructification that would leave us in tears, honoured to bask in his glory, but they were top, top horses nevertheless.
(TTC – I’ve heard that Arkle and Flyingbolt were rated by someone who wasn’t that far off being the work experience kid – they weren’t really taking the jumps seriously at the time)
BlueSky @pghenn.bsky.social
So don't run, just like the others always do
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