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"Pretty awful" was the attitude of punters after the race having a serious launch at Aidan O’Brien and the entire Coolmore/Ballydoyle stable.
Not what you’re labelling me as.
The mood of what is really becoming a distinct majority (but not me, is that clear?), is that he has brought the sport into disrepute by arguing some concerns that the stewards had with the riding tactics given.
As mentioned in the daily rag, he goes on to comment how it was possible he would’ve withdrawn all three runners because of a "concrete" ground. The return fire from these disgruntled punters and horsemen (and like I said, there’s plenty of them) was that Aidan had plenty of time to understand the firmness of an Australian track, and that he shouldn’t "shout his mouth off" like he did after the race.
It has somehow got under the skin of plenty – I for one don’t see the issue.
Do you understand now Carvill? I’ve spent the whole bloody day defending Aidan O’Brien against fellow Aussies, and the last thing I want is you to think I am part of the firing squad.
Sorry Carvill – been a rotten day of fired up colleagues and pundits beating me up for defending the Coolmore operation.
I learned yesterday that Hong Kong is the place to be for an amiable and personable community.
I understand your perspective better now Myles, no apology needed. I have some sympathy with the stewards view- in terms of Australian rules the ride on Alessandro did require scrutiny: could anyone really be sure he was ridden to win the Melbourne Cup? Under our rules there would be no case to answer, but when in Rome…
I can see the Aussies point that Coolmore want to turn the Cup into just another of those contests where they have multiple runners, control the pace and take the spoils- the grilling AP got will make them rethink their strategy next time.
For the locals to suggest he brought the race or the sport into disrepute was frankly ridiculous though.- Total Posts 17716
It is patently obvious, as no doubt it was to the Flemington stewards, that Coolmore ran 2 pacemakers in a jurisdiction where such tactics contravene their rules.
AoB’s pleas that all the horses needed a strong pace hardly hold water when one considers their recent running, and they were 100% correct to pull him in him about it.
Far from the first time Team Coolmore have been harangued about team tactics, and great to see the Australians won’t treat it with the same tolerance they are accorded here.
More power to their elbow.Thanks Robert – if only for the confirmation that I’m not completely daft.
Fascinating figures, and they do show that what many considered as a suicidal pace was nothing of the sort, and the principals were able to increase their speed in the latter sections of the race.
Would you consider it a possibility that the AoB team were undone by riding the race at a ‘British’ pace, rather than one appropriate to the circumstances?
The reason I ask is that the turf in Australia seems to be so much faster than ours; witness not only the fact that ground called ‘good’ yesterday was considered bordering on unsafe by Coolmore, but also the much faster straight-course times achieved by their sprinters in that country as opposed to this.
Certainly a case, one would think, for them to use local jockeys in future?Having a look at the sectionals before going into print and punditry would be a lot more enlightening for readers. A really important issue for BHA and Turf Club to address now is that not having sectionals in UK / (Ireland) means that our home based jockeys can never fully progress into all-round international jockeys as they do not have the basic stats to tell them what they are doing right or wrong – pacewise. So many things they shrug off as inexplicable have simple explanations within the sectionals.
Similarly the trainers keep sending the wrong horses overseas for particular races where the track geometry, pace shape and going are not suited – even if the horse might be the top rated in the stable. The Dancing Braves, George Washingtons etc .A whole lot of money is wasted on that each year which could pay for Turftrax to be resurrected many times over.
Bauer (best recent RP rated 103 and TS 97) did this at 13f Chester GF- where the continually turning track with horses attacking throughout needs a horse that is also suitable for Flemington MC pace and large fields. All Bauer’s wins have come on going Good or faster. He has won in fields of 15 and 17. (RPR MCup 114)
Septimus this year achieved a best of (RPR 121 and TS 116) on Soft-Heavy over 14f at the Curragh. Last year at Doncaster it was (RP 116 and TS 116) but over 18f GF but only 10 runners so a steadier pace shape. 75% of Septimus wins are on Good or Softer and big galloping courses. All his wins in last 2 years have been in fields of 6-9 runners. MC had 24 runners.
(RPR MCup 105 – a turn-round with Bauer of 27 pounds).Bauer on figures had no theoretical chance against Septimus but on going, pace and track suitability Bauer wins hands down.
Oz jockeys certainly can get the best out of the horse but they cannot compensate if the horse is the wrong horse for the race.
The going issue is a puzzle as Oz jockeys were also reporting that UK tracks this summer rode like concrete. They have many world rated sprinters and the going tends to be faster throughout the season – so they breed and race horses suited to those conditions and pace. At home we now seldom have firm ground due to the over-watering policies so our fast horses are additionally handicapped each time they ever do race. Jockeys naturally adapt to the slower pace that then becomes the norm.
Blind ’em with science why dont you robert11. Thats an incredible amount of bollox you’ve put in your last 2 posts and no little condecension either.
"Wind burn"
what wind??Blind ’em with science why dont you robert11. Thats an incredible amount of bollox you’ve put in your last 2 posts and no little condecension either.
"Wind burn"
what wind??Sorry about bringing a very little science to a confused Colchie /Bogger who pretends he is a Ferrari.
If you could actually define what the bollox bits were I could try to enlighten you.
The act of condescending or an instance of it is a patronizingly superior behavior or attitude. Mea culpa, I actually am superior as well as being totally arrogant.
Windburn as any who follows Australian racing – the topic in hand – knows is taking the lead for too long. The air hits the horse in front at some 37mph (or 35mph for AOB horses), a moderate gale force, without the wind blowing at all.So it seems that Aidan O’Brien might think twice about returning again.
He’s lost plenty of followers after yesterday – some saying he brought the race into disrepute.
I for one think it’s pretty awful.
This is such a poor, poor post to be embarassing …
Are you really a racing journalist or are you telling porkies?
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?
Please read the reply. Please Salse.
And yes, I’m a racing journalist. And now I will quit, because you’ve proven to me I shouldn’t be there at all.
- Total Posts 17716
Robert
Thanks for the reply, detailed and informative as usual.Cav
With respect, I think you underestimate Robert.
One of the very best things about this forum is the amount of specialist knowledge to be called on when one has a query. He has shown, time and time again, that when it comes to pace he has a depth most can only dream of, and that kind of help shouldn’t be taken lightly.
Much of it probably goes over my head too, but if I didn’t think he knew more than me there wouldn’t be much point in asking.Actually – we tend to use the term "windburn" when talking about one horse defeating another with ridiculous ease.
Example:
"He gave that horse windburn!"
What is the right horse for the Melbourne Cup from the Ballydoyle stable?
Don’t think Moonstone, Frozen Fire or Macarthur have a different, more suitable profile for the race, no?
I cannot wait for the Japanese to return. Tactical speed – check. Concrete ground – check. Sharp, turning, attacking courses – I think it’s a check. And they’ll stay all day.
Actually – we tend to use the term "windburn" when talking about one horse defeating another with ridiculous ease.
Example:
"He gave that horse windburn!"
To be more specific, when one horse races past the leader/s with ridiculous ease. "He gave them windburn!"
One of the most fascinating Melbourne Cup’s I’ve witnessed.
The Coolmore tactics backfired because they failed to take into account the effect on their own runners.
Naive of AOB to try this but the lesson will long be remembered.I hope AOB has the mettle to learn and return to challenge again.
Septimus and Honolulu are better suited on softer tracks and that is no secret so why did he choose them?
The risk of jarring up was surely considered.Mad Rush was going to need luck from his inside draw and may not have stayed the trip.
Profound Beauty will be better next year with a lead-up run included. I was surprised D Weld chose not to include one with the successful trip of Media Puzzle.
All The Good was unlucky in injury. His win over Bauer at Newbury proves he would likely have completed the Cups Double.
Bart was in tears on Saturday with Moatize qualifying and again just after the win of Viewed Tuesday. His apparent lack of appreciation was more due to the surprise of winning and lack of preparedness for the media than any lack of respect for the achievement itself.
Bart is visibly showing the signs of his age in the last couple of years but his ability to get a racehorse to produce its very best on “Cup Day” is one of the truly remarkable achievements in sport the world over. With only a handful of races beyond 2500 metres each year in Australia, there is limited opportunity to perfect the craft.I take my hat off to Mr Bart Cummings the Champion trainer of stayers in Australasia.
I spent most of yesterday working with another pseudo scientist, a bloke who took an hour to brief me on what takes most people I work with 5 minutes to do, a brief for a routine task we perform everyday in my line of work. So when I got in last night and read your 2 posts robert99 my wick was fairly short to say the least. I respect your right to an opinion although you state it as fact, but thats all it is, an opinion, an opinion I disagree with.
AOB’s team biggest weakness IS a nil understanding of pace
Given his record thats laughable, he gets it wrong, he usually gets it right.The trio needed to get furthur ahead by 3-4 seconds
How on earth could they be 20 lengths further up the track given the early speed (almost 39 mph) and what jockey in his right mind would gift a fancied Ballydoyle runner a 20 length lead in a Group 1 race even if the
horses were physically capable?[b:1mvi5iuw]Viewed….into a sheltered position but also handy position that is needed on fast ground[/b:1mvi5iuw]
Viewed was 13 lengths behind the leader in the back straight…Thats handy? Septimus was ¨handy¨. Have you seen the record of hold up horses at Bath on firm ground?[b:1mvi5iuw]Septimus exposed into the windburn[/b:1mvi5iuw]
Thank you Myles and Snoop for the correct meaning of the term. Hope youve taken note robert99. Septimus led for about half a furlong before he was passed, hardly in the lead too long.Home based jockeys can never progress into all round international jockeys
Frankie Dettori learnt his trade long before the advent of sectionals, Mick Kinnane learnt his craft in a country that has never had sectional timing. Have you seen their international victory records? Thats just 2. Are you seriously telling me Ryan Moore is f**ked because Turftrax has gone bust?Comparison of Flemmington and Chester
More wild innacuracy. Over 9f of the 16f at Flemington is run on straight sections, its half that at Chester over the same distance and hold up horses have done just as well at Chester as front runners at all trips in excess of 14f since 2000.Oz jockeys certainly can get the best out of the horse but they cannot compensate if the horse is the wrong horse for the race.
Is that not the same for all jockeys regardless of nationality?Oz jockeys reporting concrete ground at UK tracks this summer
Who, when, where?The Melbourne Cup of 2002 was the second fastest in the races 142 year history. In that race they did the first 5 furlongs in 61.68 seconds. In this years renewal they did the first 5 furlongs in 60.04 seconds, over a 1.5 seconds faster than the second fastest time ever yet this years final time was 3.43 seconds slower than the 2002 race. The first mile of this years rrace was 5 seconds faster than last years. Put simply they went too fast early and ran out of gas. Daliapour and Sandmason who set the fast pace in the 2002 renewal suffered a similar fate beaten 16 and 41 lengths repectively.
One thing you could enlighten me on…where did you get the sectionals?
It culchie not colchie by the way, still Im sure you knew that
Sportscolour do the sectionals for all Melbourne and Sydney racing.
They certainly went too quick but if they were any slower, it would become too close to a sit ‘n’ sprint affair, of which all three horses IMO seemed incapable of doing.
I have only just seen the race and i have to say the tactics with the AOB horses involved, did seem to be slightly ‘off’. I wouldnt have wanted Septimus to be anywhere near where he was if he was going to strongly figure in the finish.
What a great run from Bauer though and how much he has improved with that running.
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