- This topic has 160 replies, 33 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 3 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
It was Big Brown who was administered with steroids – as are all IEAH Stables horses. Think Curlin came off the drugs in the middle of his 3yo campaign.
There are endless examples of horses not recovering from a trip to Dubai – as I mentioned earlier maybe it’s not just the Americans given what is happening at Godolphin.
No Martin, Curlin was still given Winstrol early in 2008 for sure. Then his owner took him off it.
More poppycock, I’m afraid Blackheath, as a quick look at the GJ replay on ATR will verify.
Not only are the whole field bunched until the final quarter, the early pace is so steady that the commentator (Richard Hoiles) was moved to comment on it – not once, but twice.
Imo, the CoC comes out with a deal more credit than those viewing the results through their pockets; Greg Wood included, no doubt.You are digging yourself a big hole here reet hard.
Unlike you I did not write my post after a quick look at ATR but after a very long look taking sectional timings of the Golden Jubilee and Wokingham. Richard Hoiles could have been correct about the first half furlong but they soon quickened and reached the 4f to go marker quicker than in the Wokingham. Perhaps he based the second comment on his impression of JJ The Jet Plane and Sacred Kingdom and the relatively bunched field. He may not have taken into account the very quick Lesson In Humility niggled along to get front rank and the majority of the field pushed along at an early stage. I don’t blame him for that, snap visual impressions are often misleading. But anybody who wants their opinion taken seriously would not rely on them would they?
- Total Posts 17716
And of course, anyone who can work a stopwatch would have far superior knowledge, despite the different camera angles and imprecise delineations?
Not to mention the ‘superfast’ 33/1 shot Lesson In Humility who, far from being pressed, challenged or led right up to the furlong pole. Nor was it a "snap visual impression" to see the field still virtually in a line with one and a half to go, it’s still the same every time I watch it, a sure sign of none too searching a pace earlier.
And if you feel the majority of the field "was being pushed along at an early stage" I’d suggest you put down your watch and view a few more races, because your present race reading skills wouldn’t get you a job at the Beano.
End of discussion, imvho!Doubtless amongst those signing up to Mr Johnston’s allegations are the same people who bought the nefarious uneven watering theory of the mysterious Ascot bias. Lazy minds looking for easy answers in both cases.
I don’t know whether that is aimed at me, but I wasn’t saying that any draw bias at Ascot is caused by uneven watering.
I was trying to say that in order to counteract a draw bias, then uneven watering would probably be used, but it might not have the intended affect, and might cause a different draw bias to appear . . .
I have looked at Scenic Blast’s extended pedigree & there is no evidence of Star King(dom) though he does have the sprinters Princely Gift & Golden Cloud on the dam’s side. She goes back to the stayer Precipitation.
Genetics can be odd, his bulk might be derived from Golden Cloud, who was a typical sprinter in appearance.Interesting thread to me this, for somewhat different reasons.
Throughout the time I’ve been a member of this forum I can’t tell you how many drunken nights I’ve thought about starting a thread including the words drugs and Mark Johnston.
Good to see he’s more cavalier in his "forthrightness" than any old forum-surfing fat drunken opinionated bore…
Maybe I’ll be less inclined to hold back in future, and no doubt he’ll take in all good heart… .
Lets have it right – "Braveheart"’s comments are an embarassment to UK racing.
That is surely a fact.
There are experts who believe Takeover Target would always have the effects of that injection. Therefore, I was delighted he did not run.
Not 1 positive swab to the steroid in question since Japan–time you realised that UK sprinters are inferior–there stayers are a different story. The only advantage TT had over the GJ field is that he is better. Just accept that this is the way things are and stopped acting like a bunch of prats.
And of course, anyone who can work a stopwatch would have far superior knowledge, despite the different camera angles and imprecise delineations?
Not to mention the ‘superfast’ 33/1 shot Lesson In Humility who, far from being pressed, challenged or led right up to the furlong pole. Nor was it a "snap visual impression" to see the field still virtually in a line with one and a half to go, it’s still the same every time I watch it, a sure sign of none too searching a pace earlier.
And if you feel the majority of the field "was being pushed along at an early stage" I’d suggest you put down your watch and view a few more races, because your present race reading skills wouldn’t get you a job at the Beano.
End of discussion, imvho!The sectionals, for those who prefer reasonably reliable evidence to guessers opinions :-
Golden Jubilee
first 2f – 25.86
middle 2f – 21.73
final 2f – 27.31The third furlong was particularly quick which is why most of the field were being pushed along before halfway.
Wokingham
first 2f – 25.90
middle 2f – 22.13 (Markab leading by 0.52 secs)
final 2f – 26.16Basically most of the Golden Jubilee field were knackered before the final furlong, going too fast and racing each other too early on the easy ground. Art C and Cannonball stayed on past beaten horses to pick up the pieces.
In the Wokingham the pace was a little more even with, contrary to the commentator, Jimmy Fortune and co, the faster pace being with Markab on the stand side. Again the whole field was slowing down in the final 2f but not as dramatically on the better ground on the far side where again High Standing and Asset stayed on past beaten horses.
There are some useful pointers for future races in there which could not be gained by guessing as to the pace and its effect.
- Total Posts 17716
There are experts who believe Takeover Target would always have the effects of that injection. Therefore, I was delighted he did not run.
Not 1 positive swab to the steroid in question since Japan–time you realised that UK sprinters are inferior–there stayers are a different story. The only advantage TT had over the GJ field is that he is better. Just accept that this is the way things are and stopped acting like a bunch of prats.
Bgm
Bunch Bunch, v. i.
To swell out into a bunch or protuberance; to be protuberant or round.
Bunching out into a large round knob at one end.
It might be as well to learn English – before you tar us all with the same brush!
This is surely completely ridiculous – I can just imagine the outrage on here should the French / Australian / Italian / American authorities make similar UNSUBSTANTIATED accusations / innuendos’ about UK / Irish horses to what MJ has made.
Bunch Bunch, v. i.
To swell out into a bunch or protuberance; to be protuberant or round.
Bunching out into a large round knob at one end.
bgm1409, I think
you
represent the ‘bunch’ in this case.
There are experts who believe Takeover Target would always have the effects of that injection. Therefore, I was delighted he did not run.
Not 1 positive swab to the steroid in question since Japan–time you realised that UK sprinters are inferior–there stayers are a different story. The only advantage TT had over the GJ field is that he is better. Just accept that this is the way things are and stopped acting like a bunch of prats.
Ye right.
Conveniently forgetting Oasis Dream beating Choisir easily in the July Cup. With Choisir beating the others as you’d expect him too (ran to form).
Takeover Target won the King Stand, but that form was not the best sprint form of the year. Reverance was arguably a better horse that year. Absolute Champion may have been trained in Australia (as Genius And Evil, but it took a move to Hong Kong to improve in to a seriously good horse.
Miss Andretti was a very good mare but Sacred Kingdom was better in her year.
For sure, Australia produces good sprinters, so does Hong Kong, Britain, Hungary, USA and the World. Australia hardly has a world domination, you should not judge things on one race mate.
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
The sectionals, for those who prefer reasonably reliable evidence to guessers opinions :-
Golden Jubilee
first 2f – 25.86
middle 2f – 21.73
final 2f – 27.31The third furlong was particularly quick which is why most of the field were being pushed along before halfway.
Wokingham
first 2f – 25.90
middle 2f – 22.13 (Markab leading by 0.52 secs)
final 2f – 26.16Basically most of the Golden Jubilee field were knackered before the final furlong, going too fast and racing each other too early on the easy ground. Art C and Cannonball stayed on past beaten horses to pick up the pieces.
In the Wokingham the pace was a little more even with, contrary to the commentator, Jimmy Fortune and co, the faster pace being with Markab on the stand side. Again the whole field was slowing down in the final 2f but not as dramatically on the better ground on the far side where again High Standing and Asset stayed on past beaten horses.
There are some useful pointers for future races in there which could not be gained by guessing as to the pace and its effect.
Blackheath
4 things you’ll never convince me of:
1/ Any human being can time sectionals to 1/100th of a second from a front view, well in front of the horses, and across the breadth of a wide track like Ascot
2/ Horses at least 2 classes superior to those in the Wokingham fell in a hole after 4 furlongs after only travelling 2.5 lengths faster (your figures) over that distance.
3/ Sectionals are anything more than just another useful tool for British racing (with the possible exception of the all-weather tracks), and that anyone has yet proved to use them, as such, with any great deal of success in that sphere..
4/ That Art Connoisseur, a horse that didn’t stay a slowly run 7f in the Craven (His trainer’s words, not mine), and had the Coventry – over the same c/d as the GJ – in the bag fully a furlong from home, won the race by sheer stamina.Make that 5/; That you are not the guesser you readily accredit others being who disagree with you..
As another Antipodean to join this forum and one that enjoys both Australian and English racing I found the comments of MJohnson disingenuos and ill informed.
He of the monumental failure Double Trigger has begrudged the limited success of Australian horses by snide and derisive innuendo.
Unlike Cumani, Weld and many other international trainers Johnson has never been respected in Australia and his views carry little relevance apart from annoyance.
Now deceased Scenic sits third on the Australian sires list by earnings with more than $8million this season. Not only has he sired Scenic Blast he is the sire of a number of very good sprinters as well as his most notable winner this season, Viewed winner of this seasons Melb Cup.
Versatility is the word and maybe English breeders, trainers pigeon holed him into a one dimensional sire.
4 things you’ll never convince me of:
1/ Any human being can time sectionals to 1/100th of a second from a front view, well in front of the horses, and across the breadth of a wide track like Ascot
2/ Horses at least 2 classes superior to those in the Wokingham fell in a hole after 4 furlongs after only travelling 2.5 lengths faster (your figures) over that distance.
3/ Sectionals are anything more than just another useful tool for British racing (with the possible exception of the all-weather tracks), and that anyone has yet proved to use them, as such, with any great deal of success in that sphere..
4/ That Art Connoisseur, a horse that didn’t stay a slowly run 7f in the Craven (His trainer’s words, not mine), and had the Coventry – over the same c/d as the GJ – in the bag fully a furlong from home, won the race by sheer stamina.Make that 5/; That you are not the guesser you readily accredit others being who disagree with you..
I wouldn’t be quite so dismissive of Blackheath’s observations.
The Golden Jubilee form looked suspect as they crossed the line and I find it interesting that the final sectional was so slow compared to the Wokingham.
Re point 2. This is bogus. I certainly don’t think there is much of a class gap between the races at all – how many sprints do you need to watch to realise there is very little between the top handicappers and supposed Group horses? Just look at some of the creatures that have won the GC – Fayr Jag, Les Arcs, Art Connoisseur …
And 2.5 lengths too fast could easily be significant in a race of this nature.
I will be betting that Art Connoisseur was flattered to a significant degree in the GC, partly by racing right next to the rail in the closing stages, but also by the way the race unfolded. As for your class gap, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see High Standing turn out to be the superior sprinter of the pair.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.