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TDK
Would that be the same Les Arcs that went on to win the July Cup, again thrashing any number of proper gp1/gp2 horses?
It was the same Les Arcs that had competed (and been beaten) in plenty of handicaps himself.
The fact he beat Iffraaj (himself a Wokingham winner
and
a Group class sprinter), Ashdown Express, Amadeus Wolf, Moss Vale and Quito in a blanket finish in the July Cup reinforces my point entirely. Are these horses really on some higher plane to those contesting a typical Wokingham?
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The fact he beat Iffraaj (himself a Wokingham winner
and
a Group class sprinter), Ashdown Express, Amadeus Wolf, Moss Vale and Quito in a blanket finish in the July Cup reinforces my point entirely. Are these horses really on some higher plane to those contesting a typical Wokingham?
In a word -YES – as they went into the race off OR’s of 114, 111, 120, and 111 respectively, it would have been one hell of a Wokingham.
Les Arcs may have run in handicaps previously, but showed himself to be a revelation that season by leaving that form well behind and scoring a series of ratings (both t/s and RPR) anything up to 23lbs better than he had showed in previous seasons. Any idea that he was a jumped-up handicapper should surely have been shelved for all but the most cynical – or maybe he just had a better chemist?Wasn’t Les Arcs GC the year where Baltic King won the Wokingham in a faster time? Think it was but perhaps my memory is failing me…
Regardless, you won’t convince me there is a noticeable class jump from the top sprint handicaps to the UK Group races, because there isn’t.
Regardless, you won’t convince me there is a noticeable class jump from the top sprint handicaps to the UK Group races, because there isn’t.
If that’s the case then I don’t understand all the rumpus about foreign sprinters winning at Royal Ascot as their beating nothing but glorified UK handicappers in the first place.
Well, there is that…
I guess we would just like to know they aren’t being beaten by glorified
and
drug assisted handicappers from abroad…
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at Cav.Wasn’t Les Arcs GC the year where Baltic King won the Wokingham in a faster time? Think it was but perhaps my memory is failing me…
There you go you see TDK, assuming a race is automatically better because it’s run in a faster time is almost as daft as surmising horses are running out of stamina at the end of a slowly run race.
Putting words in other people’s mouths, I see – an understandable tactic when you have run out of arguments, though…
As another Antipodean to join this forum and one that enjoys both Australian and English racing I found the comments of MJohnson disingenuos and ill informed.
He of the monumental failure Double Trigger has begrudged the limited success of Australian horses by snide and derisive innuendo.
Unlike Cumani, Weld and many other international trainers Johnson has never been respected in Australia and his views carry little relevance apart from annoyance.
Now deceased Scenic sits third on the Australian sires list by earnings with more than $8million this season. Not only has he sired Scenic Blast he is the sire of a number of very good sprinters as well as his most notable winner this season, Viewed winner of this seasons Melb Cup.
Versatility is the word and maybe English breeders, trainers pigeon holed him into a one dimensional sire.
First of all Welcome Cubed and all of our antipodean inmates.
Isn’t this thing about disingenuous, ill informed stuff a bit of a pot, kettle, black situation. As you say Cubed, Johnstone is not respected in Australia due to one run. So one run makes a bad trainer in your country does it? As I have said before Johnstone is a VET. Why shouldn’t he comment at what some of us see as abnormal muscle definition? He is only saying in public what many people are saying in private. I am not aware of him saying it is down to drugs or steroids. He has said it might be down to better trainers. It is not an anti-Aussie issue or xenophobic nonsense. It is just I believe (as I believe he believes) questions need to be asked.
Every year there is criticism of European trainers or jockeys on Melbourne Cup day, so pot, kettle, black comes to mind. There was criticism of Aidan O’Brien last year, some worthy comments and some not so worthy.
Some said Luca’s Bauer should be disqualified from second. Though think some down under have fallen for Miss Cumani! Richard Hills was criticised for his ride one year. etc. etc. I think over here some don’t want to say anything that may be seen as against any foreigner; we have to be good losers all the time; not wingging pommes.What do you put the better muscle definition down to Cubed?
Value Is EverythingHello Gingertipster
Just out on day release
Most Aussie racegoers love the addition of European stayers(thats why they usually start favourite)), it has genuinely made a great race better but you should know only the bad angle gets reported.
Three points to ponder.
* Live in WA and have seen Scenic Blast from a yearling, has always looked big and bulky so unless he has been ‘helped’ since a baby….
* Never saw Choisir as a yearling but even allowing for him being a stallion he still has kept his very distinctive shape.
* Why not a comment on Miss Andretti, who was/is a ‘midget’.No doubting MJ qualifications but that alone doesnt make him right.
Cheers
Just looking at Miss Andretti’s pic in Timeform Racehorses 07. You are right Cubed, yuck. She is small. But it is not the size which is the main issue here, the main point being their muscle definition.
It does yet again though, make the "50 years of breeding sprinters" arguement even more rediculous. By one of John Dunlop’s / Sheikh Hamdan’s, Ihtiram (born 1992) a winner at 1m2f, last of four when stepped up to Group 2 level in the Great Voltigeur. Only paternal grand sire Royal Accademy is a sprinter (sprinter miler). With "stamina influences" Nijinsky, Ela Mana Mou and Mill Reef all in the third generation of the pedigree. Dam’s sire Marooned also a Royal Ascot winner, but a 1m4f handicap. So again, not exactly bred for sprinting.
Therefore, I’d say it must be down to superior training methods or feed or some other reason.
Mark
Value Is EverythingGraham Cunningham’s thoughts here…..
http://betting.betfair.com/horse-racing … 60609.html
Agree with him. Particularly the Royal Dick bit.
Ihtiram (born 1992) a winner at 1m2f, last of four when stepped up to Group 2 level in the Great Voltigeur…..Dam’s sire Marooned also a Royal Ascot winner, but a 1m4f handicap. So again, not exactly bred for sprinting.
Up to the 24th of June, progeny of Ihtiram have won 140 races in Australia, 78 of those at 6.5 furlongs and less.
Up to the 24th of June, progeny of Marooned have won 79 races in Australia, 46 of those at 6.5 furlongs and less.
Blackheath
4 things you’ll never convince me of:
1/ Any human being can time sectionals to 1/100th of a second from a front view, well in front of the horses, and across the breadth of a wide track like Ascot
2/ Horses at least 2 classes superior to those in the Wokingham fell in a hole after 4 furlongs after only travelling 2.5 lengths faster (your figures) over that distance.
3/ Sectionals are anything more than just another useful tool for British racing (with the possible exception of the all-weather tracks), and that anyone has yet proved to use them, as such, with any great deal of success in that sphere..
4/ That Art Connoisseur, a horse that didn’t stay a slowly run 7f in the Craven (His trainer’s words, not mine), and had the Coventry – over the same c/d as the GJ – in the bag fully a furlong from home, won the race by sheer stamina.Make that 5/; That you are not the guesser you readily accredit others being who disagree with you..
reet hard / thedarkknight
1/ I will set out the figures I got for each furlong. To get them I had to take 80+ timings keeping going until I was happy that I was getting reasonable consistency at each furlong marker. In most cases the median three are averaged. Of course you cannot get very accurate times off the Telly, but just because something is difficult does not mean it’s not worthwhile. The GJ ones were easier than the Wokingham.
2/ The timings are very revealing. Do a rough check on them yourself. What they show is that most commentators got entirely the wrong impression of the pace in the GJ and therefore have reached the wrong conclusions about the race. The pace, the going, why the two best horses fell in a hole, what Art Conniseur achieved. The lot.
3/ I don’t do a lot of sectionals. Just when I think there’s something fishy.
4/ Well it is no big deal when you just go a more sensible pace than the rest. Art Conniseur must have been slowing down as well, just not as fast as the others. Despite all the data that has been available from Newmarket, Turftrax, etc people still do not seem to have grasped the fact that in most races all the horses are slowing down inside the final furlong.
5/ I thought the mention of guessers was quite mild after the poppycock and Beano references.
Golden Jubilee
6f to 5f … 14.51 Slow first 150 yds with JJ reluctant pacemaker.
5f to 4f … 11.35 )
4f to 3f … 10.63 ) which is why they fell in a heap on the loose ground
3f to 2f … 11.10 )
2f to 1f … 13.40
1f to 0f … 13.91
Total … 1.14.90 (1.40 slow)Wokingham
6f to 5f … 14.17
5f to 4f … 11.73
4f to 3f … 11.00 ) estimated as 3f marker not shown on TV
3f to 2f … 11.13 ) (Markab)
2f to 1f … 12.45 (Markab)
1f to 0f … 13.71
Total … 1.14.19 (0.69 slow)Final point this sprint handicappers winning Group races nonsense should have been put to bed long ago. Many sprinters keep maturing well into their 5YO and 6YO careers. They build up muscle and power, improve and get faster over time. Many, probably the majority, start off as handicappers but to keep labelling them as such when they reach the top is a travesty.
UK Trainer Johnston Aims Latest Vitriol At Scenic Blast
British trainer Mark Johnston (the man who triggered international headlines last year with his attack on English authorities for inviting Australian trainer Joe Janiak & multiple Gr1-winning sprinter Takeover Target to race at Royal Ascot, after their "travel drug" controversy in Hong Kong) has now provoked a similar brouhaha with a follow-up attack on this year’s Royal Ascot star Scenic Blast, the Australian sprinter who won the Gr1 King’s Stand Stakes. Johnston declared on his website: "I think you all know that I’m not one of the ‘smoking syringe’ theorists & that I, generally, believe British racing is not only the cleanest racing in the world but it is, in my opinion, one of the ‘cleanest sports’. However, I still can’t help but wonder how it is possible to get a son (Scenic Blast) of a moderate National Hunt sire (Scenic), which in turn is a son of Sadler’s Wells, to look like a cross between Alan Wells (winner of the 100m gold medal at the 1980 Olympics) & a Quarter Horse and to win a Gr1 race over 5 furlongs. I suppose we can only conclude that they (Australians) must be much better trainers." To which Warwick Barr on racenet.com.au calmly retorted: "In case you are uncertain of Johnston’s fame, he trained the $4.60 favourite Double Trigger to finish 17th in the 1995 Melbourne Cup – 52 lengths from the winner." (Jun 30)http://www.australianracingboard.com.au/rules/rules010509.pdf
AR 178C. (1) The following prohibited substances when present at or below the
concentrations respectively set out are excepted from the provisions of AR 178B:-
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