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he got stuffed when he met real class. (Jair du cochet, wahiba ands, florida pearl, beef or salmon
)
Come off it
Wahiba Sands was getting over a stone and only won by half a length! Over a trip well short of Best Mates ideal.
Beefy? Didnt best Mate stuff him a couple of times too?
yeah at cheltenham. which beef hates. didnt kauto star stuff the entire field at ascot giving heaps of weight all round? cant remember best mate ever beating anything he gave much weight too!
<br>Dave,
I seem to remember BM stuffing BoS in the Ericsson one year while he was never given the opportunity to give weight to anything.
Ofcourse we can compare them, that is the point of ratings.
JJD- Kauto Star would be better than Best Mate because the level of form he’s shown when winning the Betfair Chase and his handicap at Aintree is better than anything Best Mate ever achieved. I’m not going to belittle Best Mate’s achievements, we all know what he did and he was one of the best staying chasers of the last 20 years, but so is Kauto Star.
Atleast when he’s won the Gold Cup I hope you’ll acknowledge that.
I believe that KS will prove to be as brilliant as expected , but its a dangerous game judging a horse on one rating surely? Hawk Wing springs to mind :)
No excuses were made for the beaten animals at Haydock, so thats a positive pointer, but for me theres more to making an ultimate judgement of an animal than the evidence of one race
Quote: from davidjohnson on 11:44 am on Nov. 29, 2006[br]Ofcourse we can compare them, that is the point of ratings.
JJD- Kauto Star would be better than Best Mate because the level of form he’s shown when winning the Betfair Chase and his handicap at Aintree is better than anything Best Mate ever achieved. I’m not going to belittle Best Mate’s achievements, we all know what he did and he was one of the best staying chasers of the last 20 years, but so is Kauto Star.
Atleast when he’s won the Gold Cup I hope you’ll acknowledge that.<br>
How can KS be one of the best staying chasers of the last 20 years when he’s only won 1 staying chase?
Seriously …
(Edited by Salselon at 12:00 pm on Nov. 29, 2006)
Err, because the level of form he showed when doing so makes him better than the likes of Florida Pearl, Suny Bay, One Man, The Fellow, First Gold, Best mate, See More Business, Cool Dawn, Mr Mulligan, Teeton Mill, etc etc.
Clivex
He doesn’t have the one piece of form, he also has the Aintree run, which at the time didn’t look solid, but Armaturk ran well enough next time to be quite confident he ran his race at Aintree and obviously Kauto Star showed at Haydock it doesn’t flatter him.
On one race…
We may find that all the principles for one reason or another ran well below form. Less likely than not, but in a field of six (two of which spectacularly failed to show any form) results can flatter
Surely a horse has to hit a rating afew times before anyone can make a definitive conclusion?
David
You answered my question before i posted it… Can you do the same for this afternoons cards? :)
Agree, agree, agree….
Aintree form has firmed up a bit. Frankly, regardless of the actual calcualtions that day, i thought it was a performance of remarkable authority….
I thought at the time, the armaturk yardstick was interesting. Clearly the stable knew how fit Armaturk was and ruby and PN’s reaction to the victory told us a lot….
DJ,
Well if you believe ratings straight down the line then KS must be the best staying chaser in the last twenty years. I for one don’t believe the rating of one race should determine this accolade. The time of the race wasn’t very impressive a bit slower than last years renewal.
Also, I have not suggested for one minute that I will not acknowledge KS’s achievements, but I’ll wait until he actually achieves before lauding praise on him.
JohnJ.<br>
A time comparison of this year’s renewal with last year’s is a fruitless exercise as 4 fences were omitted when Kingscliff won the race and they also ran part of the race on hurdles course.
DJ,
I think the handicapper centred the race around L’ami, if I’m not mistaken. The proximity of Ollie Magern says to me that L’Ami didn’t run his race. If you take every race OM has run since the Betfair last year, you’ll find he been absolutely murdered in every race. Beef or Salmon is not horse you can use as a yardstick, especially as he is so in and out.
To be honest raving about KS after beating horses like Beef or Salmon, Ollie Magern does not make him the best staying chaser in 20 years, not a chance. If/When he does beat the 2005 or 2006 Gold Cup winner, can he be considered as a Champion staying chaser….. This is so reminiscent of the hype around Stong Flow
JohnJ.<br>
Doesn’t Ollie Magern have a history of going well fresh and also has form in the past to suggest he is a 160 horse.
The difference between Strong Flow and Kauto Star is that the former won a handicap off 140, the latter off 167, so apart from their trainer I’m not sure I see the comparison.<br>
In the past, if your talking a year ago. It would suggest that Ollie Magern has left his form way behind him. He was not just been beaten in his subsequent races since he won the Charlie Hall, he has been absolutely slaughtered. All 30L+, 60 lengths in the Gold Cup. The handicapper is presuming that L’Ami, ran to form, I don’t buy it.
When Strongflow won the Hennessy in 04, he was the next pegasus, that is the similarity.
JohnJ
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