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"…fall short of TAPK’s knowledge…"
You’ve got me in stitches fella – who needs Jongleurs when we’ve got this clown?
And I hope you’ve treated your six ass-whooping men with your winnings (presuming you actually made a profit on the day given your horrific advice for the Temple Stakes).
"…fall short of TAPK’s knowledge…"
You’ve got me in stitches fella – who needs Jongleurs when we’ve got this clown?
And I hope you’ve treated your six ass-whooping men with your winnings (presuming you actually made a profit on the day given your horrific advice for the Temple Stakes).
Equi, get out from under your bed! i know where you are hiding after your big brave statement! Your Crowded House post still the boldest statement
i have read! If you are going to talk big, back it up!Please check the record HWTH…. Mastercraftsman won the Phoenix Stakes on "Good to Firm" going at the Curragh last year. So lets not attribute his success to the bad going. In fact his success on good to firm going was very impressive last year. I would attribute his improvement since the Guineas to Aidan who knows how to nurse the best out of a horse. We will see a lot more of him this year over a mile.
Last years phoenix stakes is one of those races that has that it has been prudent to just put a big X through. IMO today he has had his conditions and he was up against a field who Rayeni aside didnt have their ideal ground, so the horse I would probably take out of the race as a positive would be soul city. It was clear to see in france last year that he wasnt actioned for the better ground, and even more noticeable at newmarket. Today he was always going well on the ground.
Come ascot he will be priced up on the percieved ability he has shown today, a price which he will not for a second live up to if the ground is gd-fm and on genuinely good ground I think Delegator would cut him to ribbons.
Why put a big X through his one run last year on fast ground? On what basis can you do that other than the fact it does not suit your arguement that he needs soft ground?
The horse won on heavy last year but was really unimpressive on it at The Curragh and looked very dodgy on a softish surface in Paris. To me the main reasons for his performance today was that firstly he was fit and secondly he was much happier on the Curragh as opposed to Newmarket where he got lost a bit in the dip before staying on strongly to run on up the rising ground.
I’d take him to beat Delegator (who has likely peaked) any day from here on in on any ground….with the possible exception being Goodwood…a track that would be a disaster for Mastercraftsman.
As a side note, I am disappointed to see how this thread and so many others have turned into. The same (small) handful of people more interested in talking about themselves rather than the sport itself. I cannot understand how they are allowed continue to post or at least in the manner they do as countless of threads have been ruined by them. Regardless of no rules being broken, they are turning this place into something like the Betfair forum, which is a shame as the knowledgeable (dare I say senseable) members are being drowned out amongst the crap.
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As a side note, I am disappointed to see how this thread and so many others have turned into. The same (small) handful of people more interested in talking about themselves rather than the sport itself. I cannot understand how they are allowed continue to post or at least in the manner they do as countless of threads have been ruined by them. Regardless of no rules being broken, they are turning this place into something like the Betfair forum, which is a shame as the knowledgeable (dare I say senseable) members are being drowned out amongst the crap.
Completely agree.
The forum is being turned into a circus, and all through the antics of one clown desperate for an audience
Time for a yellow card – at the very least, methinks.Please check the record HWTH…. Mastercraftsman won the Phoenix Stakes on "Good to Firm" going at the Curragh last year. So lets not attribute his success to the bad going. In fact his success on good to firm going was very impressive last year. I would attribute his improvement since the Guineas to Aidan who knows how to nurse the best out of a horse. We will see a lot more of him this year over a mile.
Last years phoenix stakes is one of those races that has that it has been prudent to just put a big X through. IMO today he has had his conditions and he was up against a field who Rayeni aside didnt have their ideal ground, so the horse I would probably take out of the race as a positive would be soul city. It was clear to see in france last year that he wasnt actioned for the better ground, and even more noticeable at newmarket. Today he was always going well on the ground.
Come ascot he will be priced up on the percieved ability he has shown today, a price which he will not for a second live up to if the ground is gd-fm and on genuinely good ground I think Delegator would cut him to ribbons.
Why put a big X through his one run last year on fast ground? On what basis can you do that other than the fact it does not suit your arguement that he needs soft ground?
The horse won on heavy last year but was really unimpressive on it at The Curragh and looked very dodgy on a softish surface in Paris. To me the main reasons for his performance today was that firstly he was fit and secondly he was much happier on the Curragh as opposed to Newmarket where he got lost a bit in the dip before staying on strongly to run on up the rising ground.
I’d take him to beat Delegator (who has likely peaked) any day from here on in on any ground….with the possible exception being Goodwood…a track that would be a disaster for Mastercraftsman.
As a side note, I am disappointed to see how this thread and so many others have turned into. The same (small) handful of people more interested in talking about themselves rather than the sport itself. I cannot understand how they are allowed continue to post or at least in the manner they do as countless of threads have been ruined by them. Regardless of no rules being broken, they are turning this place into something like the Betfair forum, which is a shame as the knowledgeable (dare I say senseable) members are being drowned out amongst the crap.
It does indeed fit my "argument", but the way I see, a few months ago, it was an argument now it has been proven, and the case for that argument gets stronger with every run.
Last years phoenix made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever at the time, having watched the performances of both Intense Focus and Art Connoiseur at ascot I didnt for one second fancy Mastercraftsman to win on gd-fm, as IMO he is bred for cut. Then Both Art Connoiseur and Intense Focus completely failed to run any sort of race, and not only do I doubt that the ground was even gd-fm but he IMO he didnt beat much on the day, nevertheless he was awarded top 2yo for that performance which visually wasnt that impressive.
Shaweel then ran him close in the national stakes on heavy ground, but shaweel clearly also likes a bit of cut. Then Mastercraftsman fcame up against Naqoos and co in France, and having not been there with a going stick I cant say exactly what the going was. However I know for a fact that it wasnt soft. The 2yo fillies race was dominated by prominant runners, and as for Mastercraftsman’s race, Naaqoos led from start to finish, and done it in a good time, if that had have been anything worse than good (or probably the better side of good more realistically) then that quite simply would not have happened.
But it could be seen by the way naaqoos was moving over the ground that day that he is a gd-fm horse where it was also clear from the way that mastercraftsman was moving that he has a trundling action, which was even more prominent at newmarket where he was simply outclassed by horses who moved better over the ground.
Today he has won fairly easily, but today was effectively a non event. After the withdrawal of Westphalia the other day, I had a look at the field to see if there was anything worth having a go on e/w against mastercraftsman and there was nothing. Rayeni today looked borderline value in the event that Mastercraftsman hadnt taken newmarket well and failed to fire, but that was the only other semi serious contender.
I am only pointing it out as I see it and am confident I will continue to be proven right on this as the season progresses, however, if anyone wants to carry on believing that he is a gd-fm horse (or an any ground horse) and that he is up to taking on the best 3yos at 1 mile on any ground then feel free.
Naaqoos is my St James Palace horse if he comes over, if he doesnt then it’ll probably be delegator, as that brilliant burst of speed he has will be well suited to ascot. Evasive should also be open to improvement, but will monitor the situation with regards those three until a market becomes available.
Very pleased by Rayeni’s run given the wall of traffic held him up until inside the quarter-mile. Seems to thrive in the going and if he was clear in transit it would’ve been a much closer race.
I can’t doubt Mastercraftsman prefers the softer going now, but he’s got a great purchase of cruising speed.
This is a great argument – on what’s been seen this year, surely he is the superior horse on this going? I can’t rely on 2YO form as a definitive guide. Never.
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Well I backed Rayeni Myles and doubt if he could have run better or finished closer. Hard to say how it compares to Sea the Star’s guineas performance as the ground was very different and Delegator was never going. However pound for pound I would put it up their or maybe even better and certainly the best race Mastercraftsman has ever run.
I thought Mastercraftsman proved me wrong he ran a cracker, and like most AOB horses this season has come on tons for his last run, I think 1m2f would suit him if AOB wishes so, it is a wait and see job though. Think he’d make a good Breeder’s Cup Classic contender.
Rayeni impressed me too to run like that in good company for the first time, sadly he wont get ground like this most of the term, but in saying that it he is untried on good fast ground, in saying that Patkai loves fast ground, I’m not clued up on Rayeni’s mare but theere could be a good chaance he’d take to it.
Feel sorry for Delegator he is better than that, and would deserve another chance, he was obviously primed for Newmarket and maybe this has come to soon for him, obviously he actually doesn’t like it heavy as people thought he’d take to the surface. I hope this was a one off for connections.
I disagree with this general impression that because Mastercraftsman has won a heavy ground 1mile contest that he is crying out for gd-fm over 1m2f. And I strenuously disagree that he is the right sort for a breeders cup classic.
The way Rip Van Winkle, Sea The Stars and Gan Amhras ran at newmarket on gd-fm hinted that 1m2f on the same surface would be right up their street. But not so Mastercraftsman IMO.
Mastercraftsmans Guineas victory in group1 terms was a one horse race, bearing in mind that the second home was the John Oxx 3rd string choice for the race, after sea the stars and arazan were removed. before the race Rayeni and MCM were the only two I thought likely to appreciate the ground, although how good a horse rayeni was, was yet to be proven and IMO he didnt prove mightily impressive.
Westphalia looks to be heading towards the french derby, and after his running on performance in the Poulains he would look to have a fair chance of seeing out the extra trip. Whether he can defeat Silver Frost or not is yet to be seen though, but IMO he looks to be wanting a step up much more than MCM.
IMO 1 mile with cut remains what MCM looks to do best and I will continue to follow him ion those conditions. However the horse didnt look one bit suited to gd-fm at newmarket and IMO he doesnt have the sort of action that will see him ever being proper group1 class on gd-fm at any distance. Whether he gets a piss poor eclipse field to take on is a different matter though, but my feeling is that there are much better horses to take to the eclipse than him.
Mastercraftsman obviously does go on GD-FM, the Phoenix Stakes I would of thought would prove this even if it was only 6f.
And he stayed on very strongly I thought in the Newmarket Guineas.
Johnny Murtagh and Aidan O’Brien both said after the race he goes on any ground.
Time will tell, but IMO he showed (by comparison to the others) a short striding trundling sort of action (both at longchamp and newmarket), compared to long striding skip over the ground that gd-fm horses usually have and that Sea In The Stars, henry and Ravens Pass amongst others definitely had.
Everyone can take the Phoneix Stakes how they wish and the Phoneix Stakes is down in the Racing Post as gd-fm but I have learnt over time that those going descriptions often arent worth the paper they are printed on, and in that instance I am fairly dubious that it is accurate. I have always found that you can generally set your watch by Danehill Dancers getting chinned on gd-fm (something to keep an eye on if you dont believe in it) when up against a similar grade of opposition, and IMO MCM did it a bit too easily in the phoenix yet has proved not great on gd-fm since then.
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I doubt if there was ever a horse who acts 100% equally as well on all surfaces.
To adapt from soft to good/firm a horse will change stride to compensate and surely wont get exactly the same result over a distance of ground.
Mastercraftsman has won on different surfaces but which is his best is guesswork.
His best perfomance prior to his most recent was said to be over 6f when he beat Art Connoisseur. I could be argued that the runner up has let that form down badly but the third Bushranger had won prior to that race and followed up with 2 excellent wins in the Prix Morny and the Middle Park Stakes.
Last season when Mastercraftsman did run on surfaces with give from good to yielding to heavy he won but he was far from impressive scraping home in two photo finishes and winning the other by 1/2 length.
His only defeat was in France, again when the ground was on the soft side.
Granted the ground was on the fast side in the Guineas but I think time will tell the horse wasn’t anywhere near 100% that day.
For me I think it’s best to totally disregard his English Guineas run and look at his performance in the Irish 2,000 Guineas as that of a horse who has improved beyond anyones expectations.
Rayeni and Soul City may not be the best in the land they are very good animals and surley on a par or better than Shaweel who ran him to a sh.head on heavy last season.
For me all things considered Mastercraftsman’s performace only proves he has improved and not that he has prefernece for heavy ground.
I think we will find that should he get good to firm ground in the St James’s Palace he will be the bet of the flat season. I saw he was 3’s with Cahmans but that’s gone which is hardly surprising.
Some people are saying that because of the heavy ground the Mile at the Curragh rode like a 1m2f race and Mastercraftsman might be better going for the Eclipse. I personally dont agree with that as Murtagh more or less dictated the pace like his stable companion never existed.
If it did ride like a 1m2f race and I had backed Fame and Glory for the Derby, based on his win on Mourayan, I would be coercerned how good thsat from is. The third horse was beaten twice as far by Mastercraftsman as he was by Fame and Glory
I think its fair to say though Fergus McIver is a middle distance horse and would prefer the better ground.
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I get the impression you ae trying to defend Fame and Glory here.
I think you have to take a close look at F McG form considering his trainer would hardly run him on heavy in his first two runs if the horse didn’t like soft conditions.
On Soft ground he beat Morayan a head and ran Fame and glory to 1 length. That surely must be considered his best form to date.
On Good ground he run Fame and Glory to 5.5 lengths and finished 1/2 length behind Mourayan which would indicate softer ground suits him more than good did.
He ran over 1m4f completely folded a furlong out and never got the trip so
I would imagine a 1m on heavy ground shouldn’t have been too much against him
As I have said on previous threads no matter how you cut it the race Fame and Glory won was not a good event.
I can understand someone saying he himslef looks the part, he travels well etc but strictly on form when you consider everythng he really had very little to beat.
If you consider that Mourayan’s trainer was very disappointed with his run and if F McG does prefer it soft then Fame and Glory probably hasn’t improved at all and was purely flattered by the distance of his win.
We’ll find out on Derby day but I think the form stinks to the high heavens and my bet is Fame and Glory will run well but won’t make the first 3.
Just looking at the Curragh winning times from the weekend now. The fairly exposed and listed class mare Emily Blake would have finished 2nd in the 2000 Guineas. The thoroughly exposed handicapper Philario would have been even closer.
Still cant get overly enthusiastic about Mastercraftsman (who had the run of the race and the stand rail).
Just looking at the Curragh winning times from the weekend now. The fairly exposed and listed class mare Emily Blake would have finished 2nd in the 2000 Guineas. The thoroughly exposed handicapper Philario would have been even closer.
Still cant get overly enthusiastic about Mastercraftsman (who had the run of the race and the stand rail).
Indeed Cav, with regards people assuming that because he has won on heavy at 1 mile, people think that he will see out further in trip on a better surface, however what often happens when the ground is softer is that the pace is adapted and so rather than the horse with the most stamina, it is a case of the horse who can generate the most speed on that surface. The time is very similar to that of Nightime and Araafa who won on heavy 3 years ago, and Araafa never saw out further than a mile.
FWIW I think you are entirely correct to have reservations, but on the brightside I think we will have a short priced horse in the st james palace who is almost certain to get turned over if the surface is quick.
I doubt if there was ever a horse who acts 100% equally as well on all surfaces.
To adapt from soft to good/firm a horse will change stride to compensate and surely wont get exactly the same result over a distance of ground.
Mastercraftsman has won on different surfaces but which is his best is guesswork.
His best perfomance prior to his most recent was said to be over 6f when he beat Art Connoisseur. I could be argued that the runner up has let that form down badly but the third Bushranger had won prior to that race and followed up with 2 excellent wins in the Prix Morny and the Middle Park Stakes.
Last season when Mastercraftsman did run on surfaces with give from good to yielding to heavy he won but he was far from impressive scraping home in two photo finishes and winning the other by 1/2 length.
His only defeat was in France, again when the ground was on the soft side.
Granted the ground was on the fast side in the Guineas but I think time will tell the horse wasn’t anywhere near 100% that day.
For me I think it’s best to totally disregard his English Guineas run and look at his performance in the Irish 2,000 Guineas as that of a horse who has improved beyond anyones expectations.
Rayeni and Soul City may not be the best in the land they are very good animals and surley on a par or better than Shaweel who ran him to a sh.head on heavy last season.
For me all things considered Mastercraftsman’s performace only proves he has improved and not that he has prefernece for heavy ground.
I think we will find that should he get good to firm ground in the St James’s Palace he will be the bet of the flat season. I saw he was 3’s with Cahmans but that’s gone which is hardly surprising.
Some people are saying that because of the heavy ground the Mile at the Curragh rode like a 1m2f race and Mastercraftsman might be better going for the Eclipse. I personally dont agree with that as Murtagh more or less dictated the pace like his stable companion never existed.
If it did ride like a 1m2f race and I had backed Fame and Glory for the Derby, based on his win on Mourayan, I would be coercerned how good thsat from is. The third horse was beaten twice as far by Mastercraftsman as he was by Fame and Glory
I think you are having a mare here fists, if you lump anywhere near Mastercraftsman at ascot and there isnt cut, you’ll be in trouble. Horses dont adapt to any ground, some horses can throw in decent performances on various surfaces over various trips, but largely horses are actioned differently the same way as humans.
If you try walking 5 miles on a tarmac road you shouldnt have too much bother, if you try to do it across a bog you’ll soon find that the muscles you are using are much different (probably closer to walking up stairs for 5 miles).
Horses are simliar in that way in that they have different muscle make ups and where some tend to handle almost anything, a lot tend to specialise on one surface or another. Danehill Dancer as I have said before IMO 99% of the time specialise with cut, and for this reason he almost always tends to do well in the early season races in Ireland and the UK. Interestingly, if you notice how the guineas have panned out, at newmarket on gd-fm Danheill Dancers didnt get a look in in the 1,000 or 2,000, then in france (on softer conditions) he had a fast finishing 2nd in the pouliches and a fast finishing 3rd in the poulains, then on heavy at the curragh, he has won the irish 1,000 and 2,000 guineas. You can see the pattern regarding cut here.
A few seasons ago I noticed that Danehill Dancers are almost always best with cut, and in big races and higher level handicaps, you can go against them everytime on gd-fm and will very seldom ever be caught out. Mastercraftsmans win in last years phoenix being the only such example that sticks in my mind over the last few years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzW0r9MzHLU
If you look at last years Prix Jean Luc, and how mastercraftsman moves along side Naaqoos. He clearly isnt a top of the ground horse. His front legs very much dig in into the ground, where Naaqoos (who looks to have a fast ground action) is reaching out trying to grab the ground, and kicking it back powerfully with his back legs. This is how faster ground actioned horses dominate on that surface, because they can profect themselves along so much faster with such an action, however on a slower surface this action will slow them down and tire them out. On softer ground a horse who moves like Mastercraftsman will always be in his element, as his action is the much more economical on that surface.
Despite what the RP published as the going description for that day you can see by the way that Naaqoos is projecting himself along on top of the ground that it isnt any worse than good ground.
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