- This topic has 148 replies, 32 voices, and was last updated 18 years, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Apologies if this one has been done before on here but I’ve noticed several posters (well one mostly) talking about horses ‘quickening’ at the end of their races. Can we all agree that it is undisputed that ALL horses slow down at the end of a race?
What I would like to know is what is the point of this thread other than prove this other poster is wrong and you are right.
If we all said no what was the plan? If we all said yes where were we going from there?
Most posters have a point they want to make……..what exactly is your point.
Perhaps if you had not used the word ALL you wouldn’t find people so hostile. It would also have helped if you had explained exactly what you meant, That if you actually know what you meant.
You could have simply said " Can we all agree that in a large percentage of cases every horses in a race will be travelling slower at the end of a race than the field were after 3 furlongs. Plus do we agree This includes any horse that shows a turn of foot at the end of a race"
The way you wrote it was like you are saying that horses don’t quicken as you based your post round people talking about a member talking about horses quickening.
The lead horses and the horse that flew past time may all be going slower than they were 3 furlongs from home but it doesn’t mean horse that quickens doesn’t quicken……….he quickens up from the speed he was going at before he did………like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0at6tTgEvNc (worth a look guys)
You are causing a whole lot of contaversy because you are playing with words I suggest in future you say exactly what you mean and post some logical explanation of why you are saying it.
You seem to be trying to make the point some one is wrong when they are not.
Horses do quicken at the end of a race from the speed they were travelling at 50 yds beforehand and whether they were going faster 6 furlong before or not is just a bit of usless information not worth talking about.
The way you have said it is like beeing a smart ass and it is no wonder half the peole who replied think your nuts.
Totally disagree, Fist.
A question was posed along the lines of can we all agree? Clearly we can’t and the thread title/initial post was no more than you would find in any newspaper, a punchy opening with the hint of controversy. I see nothing wrong with that and it has led to a debate in which a number of interesting points have been made regarding the way races are run and how we perceive/measure speed and pace.
Tuffers,
I think you have learned something about the mettle of certain contributors to the debate on this forum. I can tell from your apt quotation that you have recognised that there are those who look at the facts and those who cannot see beyond their own opinions.
Lately, I haven”t read through much of the debate on the main part of the forum because it is so often led by the opinionated rather than those informed by facts.
Hugh Taylor, JimF and Prufrock, and possibly others have used factual evidence in this current debate.
The conclusion is that there are very few horses that are still displaying (significant) positive acceleration on the line. I will try to post more stats of what happens in the final few furlongs if there is sufficient interest.
I for one would find it interesting Jim
Fist of Fury
There is no rule on TRF stating you have to contribute to every thread.
May I suggest you have totally misinterpreted Tuffers original [b:1c2jpkgc]question[/b:1c2jpkgc], have little interest in the matter, and even less understanding of it.
If you’re actually interested in learning something on the subject then read the posts from Hugh Taylor, Prufrock and JimF, and spare us your usual opinionated bluster.
Totally disagree, Fist.
A question was posed along the lines of can we all agree? Clearly we can’t and the thread title/initial post was no more than you would find in any newspaper, a punchy opening with the hint of controversy. I see nothing wrong with that and it has led to a debate in which a number of interesting points have been made regarding the way races are run and how we perceive/measure speed and pace.
Prey tell how knowing horses in general slow down at the latter part of a race helps anyone find winners or has any bearing on racing whatsover……It is a totally useless piece of information IMO
The fact remains he picked on someone who said horses don’t quicken which is no more than trying to make a fool of the guy and make himself look smart.
To me it’s one of the most stupid statments I have ever read in my life. Looks more like a baiting excercise than a punch opening to me.
Wouldn’t get a job with the racing Post that’s for sure
As I have pointed out horses obviously do quicken or are you saying I am wrong? I have also agreed they, in some cases are going slower as a group than they were in the earlier part of a race but what the hell has that got to do wwith the price of coal?
I think anyone reading my previous post would understand what he is talking about a lot better than his feeble attempt.
Reminds me of an American computer help forum where you get guys talking in letter MOD etc with no considerstion for the novice who doesn’t have a cue what or where the MOD is.
It’s boring deliberatly confusing and no help to anyone as far as I’m concerned………..
Fist
You obviously don’t think it is a very interesting subject.That’s fine. There are often threads on here that I don’t have much interest in. So what I do is ignore them. I really don’t see the point of coming onto a thread just to rubbish the ideas put forward.
Seems to me there are two definitions of "quickened" at play here.
The first definition is where a horse "quickens" relative to it’s own previous pace.
The second definition is where a horse "quickens" relative to the pace of the other horses around it.
This is probably the most pointless thread I’ve seen on here in a long time.
Really? More pointless than:
‘I think Kauto is the best…..You’re an idiot, Denman will win…..Rubbish, Kauto will murder them……etc’
or
‘I fancy Dobbin in the 2:30 at Chepchestershire, get your money on now….’
or even
‘ Did you see that attractive woman on ATR/RUK/Prime Minister’s Questions?…….Yes I did, she was attractive…….’ ?
Since when did someone have to pass a test to demonstrate that their thread was likely to be of direct or immediate relevance to as many people as possible? There is nothing wrong with discussing some of the more theoretical issues, such as how the pace in a race is measured/perceived.
Perhaps a seperate section of the forum entitled, ‘Betting Theory?’ if that will make people happy.
Andrew, I meant ‘pointless’ as in people seem to be debating two entirely seperate definitions of the word "quickened".
The conclusion is that there are very few horses that are still displaying (significant) positive acceleration on the line. I will try to post more stats of what happens in the final few furlongs if there is sufficient interest.
I for one would find it interesting Jim
Fist of Fury
There is no rule on TRF stating you have to contribute to every thread.
May I suggest you have totally misinterpreted Tuffers original [b:1nmr8hoa]question[/b:1nmr8hoa], have little interest in the matter, and even less understanding of it.
If you’re actually interested in learning something on the subject then read the posts from Hugh Taylor, Prufrock and JimF, and spare us your usual opinionated bluster.
Who the hell do you think you are to tell me what I understand and don’t understand?……aren’t we a big hit for ourselves? How dare you come on here and insult me you self rightous stuck up ******** ****
do you read my post did you even bother or understand what I am talking about?
Am I wrong or am I right in what I said?
There people saying he’s talking rubbish because he never explained himself properly. Yes or no? or are they all idiots too?
Tell me something Drone as you are so clever…….now that people have a better chance of understanding of exactly what he’s talking about exactly what are we as followers of racing supposed to do with what I believe to be a worthless piece of information?
Incidentally when someone insults me I like to know who is doing so…..So I had a quick gander through 5 pages of posts you have made……..didn’t suprise me to find you hardy mention actual horses or races in any I saw….you are an expert on TV ariels though…and things with little wheels that go chu chu…….Oh! and you know who Bob Monkhouse is…..you have your style I have mines but at no time do I remember talking to you or insulting you….thank you
What you do with the information is up to you Fist. If you think what is being discussed is pointless, then ignore it. Why shouldn’t people discuss more theoretical aspects of racing/betting?
Yet another aggressive and belligerent post for no apparent reason.
Knowing about "quickening" or "not quickening" isn’t pointless, imo, although as Hopper says, we do need some good definition.
In fact, it may be true to say that being able to "quicken" past prominent horses may be the "key" to a whole lot of successful punting ( for the connections and backers of the "quickener", that is).
As such, it is something that is worthy of study and, to study it I suppose we have to be able to define it, measure it, and understand it.
As a matter of interest, I didn’t see the 4.30 Taunton yesterday. It caused plenty of controversy, with P Nicholls having the 1st and 2nd.
Without wishing to get into yet another area where folk get very emotional and irrational, may I ask anyone who was at the race : which horse "quickened" the most over the last twenty yards? The first or the second?Tell me something Drone as you are so clever…….now that people have a better chance of understanding of exactly what he’s talking about exactly what are we as followers of racing supposed to do with what I believe to be a worthless piece of information?
For the record, I don’t utilise nor pretend to understand the intricacies of sectional timing, nor do I feel I need to use them, particularly in my chosen betting medium of steeplechases . But the subject interests me from a ‘theoretical’ standpoint nonetheless. Don’t know about you but I’m always keen to be educated.
From what little reading I have done on sectionals/pace/timefigures it is quite apparent that a number of serious punters do find they provide a valuable edge.
Back in the ’80s Jack Ramsden (who you may have heard of) placed significant import on ‘fast’ horses (those that return timefigures significantly in excess of their OR) and made good profits doing so. This of course was when he had this angle into a race largely to himself. When the value of filtering time performances into a betting strategy became public domain his edge was lost.
So your choice of words regarding the vagaries of pace – "I believe it to be worthless information" is well wide of the mark and an insult to those who study this area.
Regarding my supposed ‘insult’ to you. A very mild rebuke I thought and not remotely in your league. If you can’t take it don’t dish it out.
Thanks for reminding the world about Bob Monkhouse – a jewel of a fella
Tell me something Drone as you are so clever…….now that people have a better chance of understanding of exactly what he’s talking about exactly what are we as followers of racing supposed to do with what I believe to be a worthless piece of information?
For the record, I don’t utilise nor pretend to understand the intricacies of sectional timing, nor do I feel I need to use them, particularly in my chosen betting medium of steeplechases . But the subject interests me from a ‘theoretical’ standpoint nonetheless. Don’t know about you but I’m always keen to be educated.
From what little reading I have done on sectionals/pace/timefigures it is quite apparent that a number of serious punters do find they provide a valuable edge.
Back in the ’80s Jack Ramsden (who you may have heard of) placed significant import on ‘fast’ horses (those that return timefigures significantly in excess of their OR) and made good profits doing so. This of course was when he had this angle into a race largely to himself. When the value of filtering time performances into a betting strategy became public domain his edge was lost.
So your choice of words regarding the vagaries of pace – "I believe it to be worthless information" is well wide of the mark and an insult to those who study this area.
Regarding my supposed ‘insult’ to you. A very mild rebuke I thought and not remotely in your league. If you can’t take it don’t dish it out.
Thanks for reminding the world about Bob Monkhouse – a jewel of a fella
Met Bob Monkhouse briefly at Sandy Lane in Holetown Barbados in the 80’s. At least you have very good taste in people
…Amazing guy he could tell me more about the village I was brought up in that I knew myself.If he tuned to racing and was apro punter he’d be brilliant at it man. must have an amazing memory.
Him aside I can assure you I can handle all the abuse anyone throws at me……It’s only a forum and I just give as good as I get….at the end of the day I have forgotten it and move on. If I agree with someone I will say so but I don’t scour the forum looking for people to have a fight with like some…….I don’t mean you but there are a few who seem hell bent on continously disagreeing with you/me or whoever.
Jack Ramsden certainly pulled of a trouch or 6 but was often pulled up by the stewards…..he would have stopped his mother’s horse
I never knew how hewent about working out his winners and I have no reason to doubt what your saying. I would think he combined his knowledge of how a horse was wroking along with his syudies and that’s something most of us can’t do…..for me there are various combinations that affect the outcome of a race………which one is most important I think depends on amy different circumastances. The punter on the stret has no chance of making money using section times or any other type if he doesn’t know what someone like Jack Ramsden knew IMO.That is my way it may not be others but for me the best weapon we have as punters is our eyes………watching horses not studying bits of paper.
I honestly do well from racing even although I would never ever describe myslef as apro punter or ever a semi pro. So it’s hard for me to change a winning formula. I may not be up with the times but I am highly unlikely to change now……….I’ve seen and heard hundreds of arguments over the years about the best systems and ways to find winners but have yet to come across anyone making fortunes using them…….I am not impressed by a guy telling me or anyone else that us betting a horse is making a market for him when he doesn’t mention a horses name before the race….just hot air as far as I’m concerned.
Take care mate and no worries I’m sure you are as bombproof as me.
I couldn’t be bothered to read all of this thread but in answer to the topic:
.
Every horse can quicken except when its running at its absolute maximum. The laws of physics and some clever maths could tell you that. Then you throw in something called relativity and it all becomes relative… strangely….
- Total Posts 17716
.
Every horse can quicken except when its running at its absolute maximum.Spot on Aragorn – but far too simple and sensible for this particular thread.
…Amazing guy he could tell me more about the village I was brought up in that I knew myself.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.