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Also, it must be pointed out that you have to take into account
the undulations of the courses. For example the classic example of the great Danding Brave in the 1986 Derby. He ran the last 5/6 furlongs in a time comparable to the sprint races at Epsom. However, you wouldn`t expect the last furlong to be the quickest as there is a slight uphill climb inside the last.Also, on a totally flat course, it is quite obvious that the first furlong is likely to be the slowest because of the standing start.
The title of this thread, which so annoyed me, is "Horses don’t quicken" – well if that was true, then the FIRST sectional would always be the fastest.
Well, not quite. If horses really couldn’t quicken then they would never move from a standing position
I’m frankly staggered that on a racing forum anyone seriously believed I was trying to say that a horse can’t run at one speed and then accelerate to run at a higher speed. Clearly that is so nonsensical as to be insane.
I think I’m getting to understand the dynamic a bit better on this forum now. Preferably don’t start threads at all to avoid having your choice of thread title being criticised and if you do post assume that no-one will read what you type and will make a knee jerk response of their own without thinking.
I was trying to make a point about the use of the word ‘quicken’ and how that illustrates how people misread a race and therefore give undue weight to certain pieces of form which appears to have gone completely over the heads of the majority of contributors to this thread. Probably best to consign this one to the dustbin and make my point in a different way elsewhere
A vital fact that time-merchants appear to miss is surely that the sectionals produced are those of the leader throughout the race.
No they are not, not on TurfTrax anyway, and clearly (I would have thought) not in the examples quoted above either.
Far from being annoyed by this thread, I find it fascinating myself, even though I don’t know the answer.
The concept of horses slowing rather than quickening as the line approaches is familiar, as I’ve heard it discussed for years. I have no factual evidence myself, but I suppose MOST runners do slow towards the end of the race, especially the majority who are out of contention.
One certainty that I think we can all agree on is that they ALL slow after the line – some quicker than others. If this is what’s meant by "the end of the race", then the statement is correct.
Anyway, I’d like to know two things from our learned and esteemed members:
In that infamous race at Lingfield, where my favourite jockey was thought by many to have thrown the race away to Egan’s mount ( Ridgeway and Rye were the names, I think), which horse was quickening most in the last ten yards of the race?
And, as a matter of interest, at which point of the race do most winners make their winning move?I’m interested in all opinions here and won’t be calling anyone names, whatever is said.
A vital fact that time-merchants appear to miss is surely that the sectionals produced are those of the leader throughout the race.
No they are not, not on TurfTrax anyway, and clearly (I would have thought) not in the examples quoted above either.
So do TurfTrax publish individual sectional times for each runner?
Of course it is true that the last furlong of a race is often the slowest. However, I have heard jockeys say that so-and-so quickened not once but twice during a race. I have heard it quoted about some of the all-time greats that they had the ability to quicken three times.
Time trail-blazer Nick Mordin once defined class as the ability to resist more than one challenge – I’m sure this is a similar point.
In answer to your original question I would like to answer.
NO!!! we can not all agree that it is undisputed that ALL horses slow down at the end of a race.
No w I have answered your question now you answer mines.
Take two 5 furlong races run in exactly the same time.
Race 1 is won by a horse who went 4 lengths clear after a furlong, made all and won by 6 lengths.
Race 2 is won by a horse who was held up and was lying 5 lengths behind at the furlong marker……He past 5 horses in the last furlong and went clear and won by 6 lengths
MY question would you agree the horses in race 2 has quickened up or not
Just been reading this thread from the start in absolute amazement
It seems that some of the more ignorant of you read one bit of some ghosted autobiography they start babbling it out as some kind of truism to anyone within earshot
I don’t want to have to read through piles of ignorant tripe to get to the good stuff every time I log on.Presuming that you’re talking about mine and clivex’s reference to Mark Johnston’s autobiography, then i’m equally amazed that you could presume i am ignorant. I was simply providing my thoughts on the subject and backing up those thoughts. I thought a helpful piece of information would be appreciated, obviously i was wrong.
All flat horses quicken the most in the first furlong and the first furlong is the slowest.
Quick does not apply to National Hunt at any stage." MY question would you agree the horses in race 2 has quickened up or not "
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Not quite sure if you were asking me the question, Fister, but if so, I can honestly say that I have no idea without
a) seeing the race
b) measuring the acceleration/deceleration of all the runners in contention somehow.
I think this is the basic problem that faces us all. Perhaps if we had some sort of device as used by the speed cops to measure exactly what is happening we might have some kind of a clue.
Till then, folk can just continue to keep shouting shite or to stay stum, and we won’t be a step nearer finding out the truth.
I’m only a punter and not a scientist, but what I’d like to know is how to make sure my horse crosses that line before all the others.
I’m relying on AP Mc Coy in the Gold Cup, and he’s a jockey who seems to be able to "slow" his mount before rallying again at just the right time. He didn’t seem to try that at Kempton, but If Jonjo is to lift that old golden goblet, I think he’ll have to at Cheltenham.And if he does, I won’t be too bothered that nobody answered my questions on this particular subject. It’s just a part of the game, and like Kieren said, "they’re not motor-bikes".
Well it would be the slowest they are starting from a sationary position
John Francome once said to my friend and I "he takes off like a bat out of hell then quickens up"
He was referring to Desert Orchid.
In the Gallagher Gold Cup Arkle quicked up so much in the latter part of the race he knocked 16 seconds of the Sandown Course record.
Bula used to sit until the last minute and could pass 5 and 6 horses between the last and the winning post such was his ability to quicken.
What this man is talking about is a horses who has been going all out for 3 or 4 forlongs getting slower as he gets towards the winning post….Bustino and Grundy for example started racing seriously 3 and 1/2 furlong out and they were all out all the way up the straight. I am assured they covered the last furlong slower than the second last furlong……now that may be normal for horses racing like that but to say no horse quickens up at the ends of a race is naive, uneducated and complete and utter nonsense.
I would love to hear him tell Ruby Walsh that Kato Star doesn’t quicken up at the end of his races…..or whenever he has to…..he would shake his head walk away and think he had just been speaking to someone not quite right in the head.
You could also argue if a horse has a (forgive me for the wrong terminology) slow twitch muscle, or fast twitch. The former could result in a horse stretching out in its turn-of-foot over 2-3 furlongs and only travelling in sixth gear by the final furlong, which may result in a fastest final furlong.
But, the general consensus seems to be that freaks of nature clock a fastest final furlong compared to the remainder of the race. A jockey would lose his bollocks if he idled until the final furlong and then scrubbed him up. The second-last furlong is generally the fastest – the fittest horse in the race is realised if they can hold some remnants of their earlier speed in the final furlong.
Here are some numbers from the Turftrax data. Distance in furlongs, course, % of horses displaying positive acceleration (of more than 0.1m/s/s – a tiny amount in other words!) as they crossed the finishing line. N is the total number of horses. The conclusion is that there are very few horses that are still displaying (significant) positive acceleration on the line. I will try to post more stats of what happens in the final few furlongs if there is sufficient interest.
D Course % (N)
5 KEMPTON (A.W) 0.38 (528)
7 KEMPTON (A.W) 0.14 (1397)
8 KEMPTON (A.W) 0.12 (1627)
10 KEMPTON (A.W) 1.04 (867)
12 KEMPTON (A.W) 0.30 (665)
16 KEMPTON (A.W) 0.74 (403)
5 LINGFIELD (A.W) 1.47 (611)
6 LINGFIELD (A.W) 1.24 (1699)
7 LINGFIELD (A.W) 2.49 (2253)
8 LINGFIELD (A.W) 3.13 (2048)
10 LINGFIELD (A.W) 1.76 (1763)
12 LINGFIELD (A.W) 3.52 (938)
7 NEWBURY 0.47 (425)
7 NEWMARKET 0.14 (719)
10 NEWMARKET 0.66 (305)
6 NEWMARKET (JULY) 0.17 (582)
7 NEWMARKET (JULY) 0.28 (721)
5 SOUTHWELL (A.W) 0.28 (725)
8 SOUTHWELL (A.W) 0.07 (1525)
11 SOUTHWELL (A.W) 0.41 (482)
12 SOUTHWELL (A.W) 0.80 (500)
6 WOLVERHAMPTON (A.W) 0.06 (1713)
7 WOLVERHAMPTON (A.W) 0.10 (1971)
9 WOLVERHAMPTON (A.W) 0.15 (2001)
9 WOLVERHAMPTON (A.W) 0.55 (1465)
14 WOLVERHAMPTON (A.W) 0.37 (542)
6 YORK 1.14 (528)To each his sufferings: all are men,
Condemned alike to groan;
The tender for another’s pain,
The unfeeling for his own.
Yet ah! why should they know their fate?
Since sorrow never comes too late,
And happiness too swiftly flies.
Thought would destroy their paradise.
No more; where ignorance is bliss,
‘Tis folly to be wise.The customary speed distribution at a course depends on a number of factors, including the conformation of the course (where the bends and gradients are etc) and the nature of the surface. For instance, anyone who studies sectionals will tell you that horses tend to finish more slowly on Fibresand than on Polytrack.
Optimum sectionals at Southwell since they reopened the track after the summer floods (sectionals derived from running fast overall times in certain appropriate circumstances) have the SECOND furlong of all races up to and including a mile as the fastest and the FINAL furlong as the slowest after the opening one.
But there are numerous exceptions to this. When winning at 7f at the track on 7th January, Ginger Princess recorded the following individual sectionals: 15.74;12.06;12.89;12.94;12.1;11.64;12.28.
She slowed down a bit at the very end, but her closing sectionals were MUCH faster compared to her overall speed than you would expect in order to achieve a fast time and her overall time deserved to be upgraded accordingly.
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