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Kind of negates the official handicap single-figure rise/drop in the weights doesn’t it?
Surely the body weight is distributed over the entirety, whereas the handicap is acting over a single point.
For me the issue is a red herring, I bet HK for two years and never found it of any use whatsoever. It’s OK believing something might help but converting it to profit (or savings) is another matter entirely.
Surely the body weight is distributed over the entirety, whereas the handicap is acting over a single point.
One for the physicists/engineers methinks, and the consideration of ‘sprung’ and ‘unsprung’ weight; the latter being particularly low in horses – ‘light’ legs, ‘heavy’ bodies
I don’t know if horse weights would be a red herring or a boon to the punter; it would be nice to be given the chance to find out; much like the eventual declaration of headgear, which many a racing luminary said would be a waste of time and of no help
They made a point in saying Toronado had put on so much weight since the Guineas before his race at Goodwood. I saw a photo of him prior to the York race and he looked thinner than me. The bookies would be one against published weights of horses.
Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
for many the bodyweight is more to do with degree of wellbeing rather than any handicapping calculation, eg:
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During the ship from California, Mateo lost 10kgs. We are very much into weighing our horses, both weekly and before and after each race, and this is something that is extremely useful in a situation such as this. The normal weight loss for Mateo in a race is about 10kgs, and he will usually put this back on within a week.Weighing is very common in England, where I originated from, as the horses ship long distances to each race meeting. I have always found that a mature horse’s weight will only differ by about 2kgs when he runs to his best form.
============http://www.isd1.com/jory/mateo-hk.html
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Changes in a horse’s bodyweight can be important. I believe that to judge its significance you need to consider it in relation to the work the horse has been doing.If a horse has been doing only light work and its weight goes up 20lbs, chances are the extra weight is mainly fat and it will have a negative effect on the horse’s performance. But if it puts on the weight while it has been doing strong work, then the extra weight may be muscle, meaning the horse will be stronger.
The same thing applies in reverse in cases where there is a sudden drop in bodyweight – a drop while doing strong work may just mean it has shed unwanted fat and will be better off, but a drop after doing light work may be a sign there is something bothering the horse
===========http://www.racinghk.com/postrace/results/2012-10-10/#
apart from recording trackwork, HKJC form centre also compiles for each horse a table of rating vs bodyweight vs placing, eg:
Thanks Wit
It’s a fascinating, complex subject and one I’d relish getting my teeth into here in the UK given the chance, which seems slim
"Weighing is very common in England" there you go: the trainers can do it so why not the racecourses. An electronic weighbridge at the entrance to the pre-parade ring with weight transmitted instantaneously to the racecourse, BHA and Form organizations; and to punters via a dedicated website
We have Oddschecker, roll on Weightchecker
I have a dream that one day…
slightly tangential but may be of interest:
HK doesn’t race in August, but that was the month the HKJC hosted the equestrian events of the Beijing Olympics.
So ahead of that a small study was undertaken of the likely impact on the horses competing, including this in relation to bodyweight:
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Sixty-seven per cent of horses lost weight during the day, while 70% gained weight during the evenings.Ninety per cent of an acute reduction in weight is probably due to the loss of body fluids, and we surmise that most horses lost fluid during the day while exercising, but regained most or all of these fluids while resting during the evenings.
Voluntary water intake during training and competition is essential to maintain adequate hydration.
Most horses appeared to voluntarily replace fluid deficits within 24 h, such that the overall mean weight change for 12 horses,
during their entire stay in Hong Kong, was modest.A pattern of continued weight loss was interpreted as evidence of mounting cumulative fluid and electrolyte deficits that were likely to be compounded by continued training, and, if not corrected, might result in suboptimal performance.
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Hi All, I was wondering if anyone can tell me where I could get the weight of a horse either before or after a race, Just read an american article about how they use the weight of a horse in there time calculations.
Thanks in advance
When the article was referring to the "weight of a horse" they were referring to the weight the horse is
carrying
. Nobody here is using the horse’s body weight in calculating speed figures. No way of finding out that information as a bettor, either.
They made a point in saying Toronado had put on so much weight since the Guineas before his race at Goodwood. I saw a photo of him prior to the York race and he looked thinner than me. The bookies would be one against published weights of horses.
If a horse’s weight gain/loss between races is enough to affect their performance you can tell that just by looking at them. Some horses carry more flesh than others, any deviation from the norm should be taken note of.
If a horse’s weight gain/loss between races is enough to affect their performance you can tell that just by looking at them. Some horses carry more flesh than others, any deviation from the norm should be taken note of.
Indeed, the skillful black art of paddock watching that requires significant practice and experience, and necessitates being up close and personal on-course; some would say it’s the only remaining edge the on-course punter has nowadays
Miss W,
Do you think knowing the raceday live-weight would be a boon to punters and simultaneously quash the edge available to on-course paddock watchers?
Yes many trainers here to weigh their horses regularly. However I’d say not as high a percentage as you’d think – possibly down to the expense and man hours it would take.
When horses travel to the leading international events – say Breeders’ Cup – they have the opportunity to weigh their horses upon arrival and I’d say that less than 20% would take advantage of that. Those are the ones who knew what it weighed beforehand and could then work out the weight lost in transit.
Some of the reasons it is less practical than in Asia:
1. The huge variety of tracks over here – if you were going to do it (say on the flat to start with) you’d still need it at every course to make it worthwhile.
2. This leads to the expense of installing them, calibrating them for every meeting and having people to man them. It is certainly a longer job for somebody to get a horse to stand still long enough to register an accurate weight (and I’ve seen this done hundreds of times) than, say, getting a microchip reference. The ones sunken into the ground are easier to work (Clive Brittain has an excellent one like this) but I’d imagine much more expensive as most people have the above ground ones.
3. In some of the Asian countries that do weighing you’re dealing with older geldings in a comparatively small pool of horses. Here we’re dealing with young horses who are growing – and therefore naturally putting on weight in a good way – and fillies whose weight can fluctuate with their monthly cycles. Whilst transparency is a good thing I think interpreting horses weights would be much more difficult than first imagined.
4. Weights can vary depending on what time of day you’re weighing them – as Wit has said above. Therefore you’d get different readings for a horse depending on it being for an afternoon meeting or an evening one.
5. I agree that it is now much easier to distribute the information than even 5 years ago. However given that many horses only arrive at the track a couple of hours before they race (only an hour at Newmarket) you’re not going to get this information until the last moment. A very different system to Asia or Australia where they have to be on the grounds for many hours beforehand.
If a horse’s weight gain/loss between races is enough to affect their performance you can tell that just by looking at them. Some horses carry more flesh than others, any deviation from the norm should be taken note of.
Indeed, the skillful black art of paddock watching that requires significant practice and experience, and necessitates being up close and personal on-course; some would say it’s the only remaining edge the on-course punter has nowadays
Miss W,
Do you think knowing the raceday live-weight would be a boon to punters and simultaneously quash the edge available to on-course paddock watchers?
No. You have to know if the weight is fat or muscle or water-weight. In the paddock it’s easy to tell the difference between a horse that’s fit and lean and one that’s just skinny, even though they both may weigh the same.
Also listing the weights would be impractical for all the reasons mentioned by Adrian above. It would be even more impractical in the US where there’s 100s of racecourses scattered across thousands of miles and horses are shipping from track to track.
Also listing the weights would be impractical for all the reasons mentioned by Adrian above. It would be even more impractical in the US where there’s 100s of racecourses scattered across thousands of miles and horses are shipping from track to track.
That is total nonsense Miss W.
They have been providing greyhound body weight and sectional times for UK greyhound racing for decades without a problem. That is from an impoverished sport that does not have the luxury of a levy.Body weights can be declared at time of race entry and only checked for compliance within a margin at the track. How punters interpret information is surely up to them and it is patronising to suggest it is all too difficult. It is all very easy if the initial effort is put in.
They weigh jockeys before and after every single race so the extra cost in manpower and equipment is absolutely minimal.
All the data for the jockey weight to carry is included with every race and adding one column of data for horse body weight is absolutely trivial.The larger cost saving of owners not paying fees and travel costs for overweight horses with no chance of winning but high chances of expensive injury is one thing. The pointlessness of UK handicaps where a horse avoided for going up 5 pounds in the weights but weighing 50 pounds less than last time and hosing home is another cost saving to the punters gullible enough to bet with vital inside information known only to trainers not being made available. That official handicappers have not access to such vital information is a farce for a major sport in the 21st Century.
3. In some of the Asian countries that do weighing you’re dealing with older geldings in a comparatively small pool of horses. Here we’re dealing with young horses who are growing – and therefore naturally putting on weight in a good way – and fillies whose weight can fluctuate with their monthly cycles. Whilst transparency is a good thing I think interpreting horses weights would be much more difficult than first imagined.
4. Weights can vary depending on what time of day you’re weighing them – as Wit has said above. Therefore you’d get different readings for a horse depending on it being for an afternoon meeting or an evening one.
All true but for me this just adds to the fascination and would permit specialization too: one punter could immerse himself in weight-profiling the progeny of specific sires and/or dams as they mature from 2yo; another the weight profiling of fillies and the relationship to oestrus you mention; another the effects on weight of gelding; another (me probably
) the annual weight cycling of ageing chasers; another the quantitative assessment of the afternoon/evening difference; another the effects of temperature – cold days and hot days; another…the options are manifoldPunters being punters most won’t bother to delve deep into the subject but for those prepared to put in the work the results
could be
rewarding; as timefigures were for Phil Bull and Jack Ramsden before they became mainstream and a wholly accepted useful piece of information
negativity don’t pull you through
No. You have to know if the weight is fat or muscle or water-weight
I get that myself.
I have a sneaking feeling I know which one it is though.
Mike
Of course in the States the use of Lasix affects weight. It is a diuretic and so, although marketed purely as a means to avoid bleeding, it also dehydrates horses. You should see how some low grade claimers – presumably on the full dose – pee in the paddock before saddling over there.
I doubt it is the weight which is relevant. Each horse’s optimum mix of fat/muscle/fluid would be more helpful. And, using electrodes/software, it is probably easier to measure on racedays: the trick would be in establishing the ideal base figure
"Joseph O’Brien’s controversial QIPCO Irish Champion Stakes ride on Australia yesterday evening has taken another twist with confirmation that the champion jockey weighed in 1lb heavy after the odds-on favorite’s defeat"… Irish Examiner.
It has been reported that Joseph O’Brien weighed in at 1lb overweight in the Champion Stakes.Apparently gained weight by racing for over a mile.Since he weighed out with the correct weight that is some miracle.If he weighed out overweight they must announce it to bettors.No? Seems like the scales man needs to stay awake.
Sooner or later dodging catches up with you.
) the annual weight cycling of ageing chasers; another the quantitative assessment of the afternoon/evening difference; another the effects of temperature – cold days and hot days; another…the options are manifold
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