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If what you said was correct, then Galileo would not be mating 200 + mares , in Europe , a year,
He doesn’t. Just said I’d mention it, since you have posted it more than once.
The facts are that the first crop has already produced 8 individual group winners by the May of their 3yo season. People can make their own opinions as to whether in the next 6 months he has horses capable of adding to that tally – but it would probably be a brave person who said no. A few people on this thread appear to like research – maybe look at how many group winners other stallions produced in their first crop. There are a few who have more – but only after their first crop had run at 3 and 4. When it comes to any stallion – be it Frankel or a horse who stands for £5,000 – surely it takes a full two seasons before anyone can claim to judge their progeny.
Also – the research fans might like to look into Sea The Stars first book. Would be interested to know how it compared in terms of Gr1 winners/producers – and how Frankel is doing at this point compared to STS in the May of the first crops 3yo season.Uncle Mo’s first crop recorded 13 individual stakes winners, including 3 G1 winners (one of which was a Kentucky Derby winner) by early May, off a good, but not exceptional, first book of mares. I think that now, a year later, that first crop has 23 individual stakes winners.
So, 8 group winners by comparison isn’t really anything to write home about
That is misleading. By the May of his first crops 3yo season Uncle Mo had 6 Graded (group) winners – admittedly one was the champion Nyquist. Uncle Mo, who has done amazingly well, has 12 group/graded winners from his first crop who have been racing up until the age of 4. Once Frankel’s first crop are 4yos – maybe we can then compare as to whether he has got 12 group winners (so that is 4 more to get in well over a year)?
Uncle Mo’s first crop recorded 13 individual stakes winners, including 3 G1 winners (one of which was a Kentucky Derby winner) by early May, off a good, but not exceptional, first book of mares. I think that now, a year later, that first crop has 23 individual stakes winners.
So, 8 group winners by comparison isn’t really anything to write home about
Doesn’t the US have graded races (for the classic generation) run through Jan/Feb/Mar though?
Uncle Mo’s first crop recorded 13 individual stakes winners, including 3 G1 winners (one of which was a Kentucky Derby winner) by early May, off a good, but not exceptional, first book of mares. I think that now, a year later, that first crop has 23 individual stakes winners.
So, 8 group winners by comparison isn’t really anything to write home about
Doesn’t the US have graded races (for the classic generation) run through Jan/Feb/Mar though?
Not to mention the fact that Uncle Mo had 165 in his first crop compared to Frankel’s approx 105/110 – so his statistics for that crop (7.5%) stakes winners to foals – are currently identical to Frankel’s even though Frankel’s first crop have a year and a half to gain parity. A more sobering thought is that sadlers wells had a career percentage of 13% stakes winners to foals – what a horse (even if he didn’t have as much supposed early success as uncle mo!)
That is misleading. UNcle Mo, who has done amazingly well, has 12 group/graded winners from his first crop who have been racing up until the age of 4. Once Frankel’s first crop are 4yos – maybe we can then compare as to whether he has got 12 group winners (so that is 4 more to get in well over a year)?
I think 3 G1 winners (including Kentucky Derby winner), 3 G3 winners and 7 Listing winners beats 1 G1 winner, 1 G2 winner and 6 G3 winners in anybody’s book, without even considering the huge difference in the quality of the books of mares.
But for the sake of it ….. Uncle Mo recorded 8 graded winners by the 23rd July, comprising of 3 G1 winners, 1 G2 winner and 4 G3 winners.
But maybe Frankel will notch up two G1 winners by the 23rd July.
That is misleading. UNcle Mo, who has done amazingly well, has 12 group/graded winners from his first crop who have been racing up until the age of 4. Once Frankel’s first crop are 4yos – maybe we can then compare as to whether he has got 12 group winners (so that is 4 more to get in well over a year)?
I think 3 G1 winners (including Kentucky Derby winner), 3 G3 winners and 7 Listing winners beats 1 G1 winner, 1 G2 winner and 6 G3 winners in anybody’s book, without even considering the huge difference in the quality of the books of mares.
But for the sake of it ….. Uncle Mo recorded 8 graded winners by the 23rd July, comprising of 3 G1 winners, 1 G2 winner and 4 G3 winners.
But maybe Frankel will notch up two G1 winners by the 23rd July.23rd July – challenge more than accepted. My bet is 2 more group 1 winners and 3 new group winners on top of that (not to mention the fact he already has 8 group winners 2 months early). Anyone else got some predictions?
Well, that’s closer to what you would expect based on the quality of his book of mares, which was far superior to Uncle Mo’s first book, and was comparable only to that of Galileo that year, who of course has already notched up 4 G1 winners (including 2 classic winners), 1 G2 winner, 4 G3 winners and 3 Listed winners.
A more sobering thought is that sadlers wells had a career percentage of 13% stakes winners to foals – what a horse (even if he didn’t have as much supposed early success as uncle mo!)
Nijinsky 18%, and ND 23% SW to foals
Well, that’s closer to what you would expect based on the quality of his book of mares, which was far superior to Uncle Mo’s first book, and was comparable only to that of Galileo that year, who of course has already notched up 4 G1 winners (including 2 classic winners), 1 G2 winner, 4 G3 winners and 3 Listed winners.
I am so pleased that we are going to sleep in agreement – that frankel will struggle to do as well as Galileo – who will go down in history as one of the greatest sires of all time – but he is going to outperform Uncle Mo.
A more sobering thought is that sadlers wells had a career percentage of 13% stakes winners to foals – what a horse (even if he didn’t have as much supposed early success as uncle mo!)
Nijinsky 18%, and ND 23% SW to foals
Due to the size of books covered by modern stallions those sorts of percentages are a thing of the past – personally I think they show sadler’s wells 13% in an even better light.
Well, that’s closer to what you would expect based on the quality of his book of mares, which was far superior to Uncle Mo’s first book, and was comparable only to that of Galileo that year, who of course has already notched up 4 G1 winners (including 2 classic winners), 1 G2 winner, 4 G3 winners and 3 Listed winners.
I am so pleased that we are going to sleep in agreement – that frankel will struggle to do as well as Galileo – who will go down in history as one of the greatest sires of all time – but he is going to outperform Uncle Mo.
Well, I’m glad that you accept that he’s no Galileo, the hype around Frankel appears to indicate that Galileo should move over now!
I’m afraid that we can only truly compare Frankel with Uncle Mo (or indeed any stallion) when they have comparable books, but Uncle Mo is now getting better mares, so we will be able to compare them in time. I’d bet on Uncle Mo!
The facts are that the first crop has already produced 8 individual group winners by the May of their 3yo season.
Mostly achieved at 2, bar Cunco, and NONE of them have looked like they have progressed since. Still a little early to comment on Fair Eva
Brave? Coolmore will clean up until this side of Royal Ascot. (I doubt they have a Derby winner though)
For for future group winners from the first crop? This year? In the UK, Monarch’s Glen has a shot if he calms down or is gelded. Cracksman? There definitely won’t be the Derby! Group race this year? Wouldn’t bank on that in the UK, in France sure. The French scene seems to be ripe for Irish and British horses to raid France this year with the viruses still rampant so perhaps the few unexposed 3 year old Frankels might pick something up at Group 2-3 level . Anyone them with Godolpin will often be allowed to train on at 4 and even 5 if they are showing some form, so they may find some soft group race somewhere around the world.
His two year olds this year will be interesting .
People can make their own opinions as to whether in the next 6 months he has horses capable of adding to that tally – but it would probably be a brave person who said no. A
Good performances at Group 1 level is what we are looking for now.
few people on this thread appear to like research – maybe look at how many group winners other stallions produced in their first crop.
We already touched on this!
Dubawi produced 9 Individual Group 1 winners from his first Crop, with a total of over 16 Group 1’s between them.4 of them won their Group 1s at 3 years of age (2 in South Africa and ) Granted, some of these horse did not win their Group 1s at 2 or 3 years (irrelevant in the long run), but, still from the First Crop. His First Crop were born in 2007, so ran as 3 year olds in 2010.
The following horses come from Dubawi’s first crop, there might be others that started or went to other countries like Germany, Oz etc, but this this a breakdown to the best of my knowledge as to what these best of the first crop won and when. I know it is the usual puff piece, but according to Darley, the horse is
“The fastest ever to sire 50 Group winners and has more Group winners than any other stallion at the same stage in their careers. Sire of 28 G1 winners so far. 16% Stakes winners and 10% Group winners makes him one of the world’s greatest stallions.”
Darley have a great page for Dubai, it actually lists some of their horses that ran at 2 (2009) and 3 (2010) etc
Dubawi Heights (Half sister to San Remo & Make Believe) won 2 US Group 1s at 4 years (interrupted 3 year old season) Lucky Nine won about 7 Group 1s (5 of them “local” HK Group 1s)
Makfi won the Guineas and Maorios at 3.
Monterosso who won the Dubai World Cup at 5, won the King Edward at 3 years.
Prince Bishop, who also won a Dubai World Cup, had won a Group 2 (beating Cirrus Des Aigles) and 3 in France during his 3 year old campaign
Poet’s Voice won a UK Group 2 at 2 years, and a Group 2 and Group 1 (Queen Elizabeth II) at 3 years
Sand Vixen (Dream Castle’s dam) won a Group 2 at 2 years
Astrophysical Jet Would eventually win two Group 3s when the horse was 4 or 5 years old
Worthadd won two Italian Group 2’s (including the Italian Derby) and an Italian Group 3 at 3 years of age. Placed in the Lockinge the season later, he won another Italian Group 2 and later a German Group 3
Asfare won a listed race at 3 and 4 and finally won a Group 3 and a Group 2 at 6 years of age
Fox Hunt started his 3 year old campaign late. Won the German St Leger at 4 (Group 3) and some Group 3 in Meydan the year later.
There are a few who have more – but only after their first crop had run at 3 and 4.
That is slightly irrelevant in the long term, because the second crop and third crop were already covered and foaled by then the time that the first crop run at 3 years. Dubawi as shown above did pretty well getting 4 individual horses to win Group 1s at 3 years of age from his first crop. (Well, for argument sake, let us just say the two that won in the UK)
Frankel went to stud in 2013. He has already had 3 seasons worth of work before the Spring of 2017 , while charging £125,000. Juddmonte won’t be silly enough to reduce the price for Spring 2018 on account of whatever the first crop does for the rest of the season, after all, he has produced a Group 1 winner. God knows what this year’s 2 year olds will be like, touch wood a bit better, temperamentally. Even the brats that have gone bonkers still look like decent horses if given time (and maybe gelded, maybe) Spring of 2018 might be the test with regard to the quality of mares (preferably proven producers of group horses) and 2019 will be THE year when questions get asked (if he has not produced another Group 1 winner or two – preferably classics)
When it comes to any stallion – be it Frankel or a horse who stands for £5,000 – surely it takes a full two seasons before anyone can claim to judge their progeny.
I would say even 3 crops! But, not everyone is charging £125,000 straight away!
Also – the research fans might like to look into Sea The Stars first book. Would be interested to know how it compared in terms of Gr1 winners/producers – and how Frankel is doing at this point compared to STS in the May of the first crops 3yo season.
Sea The Stars went to stud in 2010. In total, a Sire of 59 Stakes performers (20 Group winners, 14 Listed winners) -First horses born in 2011, first 2 year olds in 2013, and first 3 year olds ran in 2014. Very very very few 2 year olds ran a full campaign. STS was a MASSIVE horse in size and I recall some experts thought that he would be more a National Hunt horse . Has not got the support of the Aga Khan until recently. May now start to get some quality mares. Many three year olds from the first crop and subsequent crops were gelded before they started racing! Anyway, first Crop
Taghrooda – dam was a favourite of mine, Ezima, ran for Jim Bolger. Ezima herself was by Sadler’s Well and Ezima’s dam sire was none other that Darshaan, himself an excellent producer of Group 1 winners. Anyway, Taghrood won the Oaks, and a King George Stakes and should have won the Yorkshire Oaks but for the Jockey, 3rd in Arc
Sea The Moon – Group 2 and 3 German winner and huge margin win in the Germany Derby Group 1. A lot of hype about the Arc by June but got injured in his last race coming 2nd – Jockey on the day got a lot of stick for the ride
Vazira won the French Group 1 that acts as a trial for the French Oaks – nothing flash about the damn!
So by 2-3 that is 4 Group 1s, two of them Classics!
The others
Mutakayyef – a frustrating horse, still running at 6, a miler horse to 10 f. Gelded in 2015 . His 3 & 4 year campaign consisted of a lot of placings in listed and Group 3’s with Paul Hannigan on board. Finally won a Group 2 in his 5th year and was only 3/4 l 3rd in the Woodbine Mile G1 to Tepin
Astronereus – Amanda Perrett trained
The dam has done nothing on or off the track. Mostly handicap stayers races, the odd listed win. Won a Group 3 at 5 years last yearStars Over The Sea – Dam did produce a Group 1 winner in the US. Alas, this poor horse never had a chance, trained by Mark Johnson
and later sent over hurdles with David Pipe. Now with Henry De Bromhead. 
My Titania – Oxx. Dam, who was a listed winner, did produce a decent sprinter called Muthmir. My Titania was a Group 3 winner at 2 years of age. First race at 2014 was the Coronation Stakes , rather odd.
Afternoon Sunlight Won the Irish 1000 Guineas Trial, Group 3 at 3 . Weld made a right balls of her season thereafter
Casual Smile- Group 3 in the US at 4 years
Zarshana – Group 3 winner in France at 3
An increase in his price, the current price , only occurred after 5 crops !
The dam has done nothing on or off the track. Mostly handicap stayers races, the odd listed win. Won a Group 3 at 5 years last year
and later sent over hurdles with David Pipe. Now with Henry De Bromhead. 
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