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Lovely to see the brave posters come out of the woodwork when the chips are down and the races have been run. Where were you guys before hey? What a bunch of after-timers. Well done Twice Over and Hein. Hope you’ve got it nicely out of your system – perhaps you can calm now. The Judge is right – incredibly harsh. You want facts? Here are a few:
22 out of 58 have RPR’s over 90 and we are in May. He has a 31% career winner strike rate. More 2 year old group winners than any other sire since 1990. 14.6% Group winners to runners.
All extraordinary stats. And some of you are calling him dross or crap?
And yes T/O – that day at Ascot was full to capacity. Check YOUR facts before posting sir.
As for the “gush” on the other thread. A word or two of advice – DON’T READ IT!!! It’s been on there for years so you must know by now it is full of fans for the horse. Racing fans who love to get excited by our sport and by horses who, yes, transcend it. Everyone of my non-racing friends knows who Frankel was. So sad to see such dreadful negativity.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Lovely to see the brave posters come out of the woodwork when the chips are down and the races have been run. Where were you guys before hey? What a bunch of after-timers. Well done Twice Over and Hein. Hope you’ve got it nicely out of your system – perhaps you can calm now. The Judge is right – incredibly harsh. You want facts? Here are a few:
22 out of 58 have RPR’s over 90 and we are in May. He has a 31% career winner strike rate. More 2 year old group winners than any other sire since 1990. 14.6% Group winners to runners.
All extraordinary stats. And some of you are calling him dross or crap?
And yes T/O – that day at Ascot was full to capacity. Check YOUR facts before posting sir.
As for the “gush” on the other thread. A word or two of advice – DON’T READ IT!!! It’s been on there for years so you must know by now it is full of fans for the horse. Racing fans who love to get excited by our sport and by horses who, yes, transcend it. Everyone of my non-racing friends knows who Frankel was. So sad to see such dreadful negativity.
What are you talking about? The views on Frankel’s horses in 2016, the limited view we saw , were actually regarded poorly on other racing forums,ALMOST FROM THE START! so nothing to do with being brave at all.
People have called them out for what they were then and at the risk of having egg on their faces had any of them shown a resemblance of progress so far this season. Many of the commentators on the site below WORK in stud farms! People who have been up close and personal to some of the foals http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057547113 . There are a number of other sites, that is just one. If you had read them, it might have saved ye a few bob
The following link on Frankel started in January 2016. Here is one of the first statements made, and I can vouch that the person that said it knows his breeding and form
” but I followed the Sea The Stars progeny like mad in the first year and was disappointed by and large. I am sure Frankel will produce a couple of decent horses, but most will by and large disappoint.” 9/1/2016.
That was the general consensus that no one ought to go bonkers and sentimental as great horses don’t always become good stallions, who leave it on the course.Furthermore, a full assessment of his own pedigree and that of likely mares This chap who made this statement is Stato of Horse Racing Knowledge (good tipster too)
“I agree that Frankel is unlikely to produce champions. One good point in his favour is the four sires close up in his pedigree were good producers: sire side: Sadler’s Wells; Miswaki, dam side: Danehill; Rainbow Quest
His stud fee of £125k is crazy.” 12/1/2016“going by how the frankel yearlings were received, its fair to speculate that he is very unlikely to leave a lasting impression in the breeding barn as he had done on the track” 12/1/2016
“My guess is the mares bred to Frankel will not be suitable, probably too much Northern Dancer.” 12/1/2016
“Obviously very impressive start but you don’t send mares to Frankel necessarily wanting 2 year olds. It’s a long time between now and the Guineas next year and that’ll be a better indicator” 9th June 2016 after Frankel’s hot start with 2 year olds
“What do you make of the Frankel’s after Ascot?
Have to say that they disappointed just a bit, Frankel himself improved for stepping up in trip and company while the Frankel’s weren’t getting better the further they went which was at odds with the impressions they left when winning their maidens. It was particularly disappointing to see Cunco the best of his so far having the form of his maiden win turned around with the 2nd then Isomer ( by the appalling sire Cape Blanco ) beating him today.
Hard to assess where they go from here, they all ran okay, the 2 colts showing signs of temperament. Shades of Zoffany maybe about the Frankel’s in that they look like horses of the highest order but fall a little short when the going gets really tough.There should be enough well bred Frankel’s to come to get over this blip.” 18/6/2016
“The Racing Post go so over the top re Frankel it is so childish. Anyone see the in running comments on their app the other night. How sad is this imagine someone got paid for that” 7th July 2016 (The racing post comments referred to Palmer Majoris.
)“Cunco very disappointing and once again having a horse who finished behind him reverse the form in the next race. The Frankel’s aren’t hitting the mark at group level, it’ll take a bit of time to figure out what the Frankel’s are about trip wise, precocious wise or not etc.” 9th July 2016
“People are getting very worked up by Fair Eva and it is easy to be sucked in when you see a performance like that. That said if you take a step back and look at it logically you can probably notch it down a bit
Both the first and second were beaten today by similar distances than they were by Brave Anna at Royal Ascot, a daughter of War Front winning on good to soft. It’s fair to assume she will probably be better on quicker going. How went off second favourite today, an above average filly but she is now a five race maiden, and four of her starts were in maidens in Ireland. Not to mention the third favourite was withdrawn at the start. Plenty of superlatives being thrown around at the minute but I wouldn’t be too quick to call her a star yet – 23/7/2016 on Fair Eva Winning the Group 3
“It’s been a few informative weeks since anything’s been posted in this thread. Following the flop of Queen Kindly in the Gp 1 Cheveley Park Stakes, the Frankel’s flopped in another pair of Gp1s with favourite Toulifaut flopping after meeting trouble in running in the Prix Marcel Boussac and the well fancied Seven Heavens pulling like a headcase before flopping in the Dewhurst.
Notions about the Frankel’s speediness need to be revised as his sons have been running with credit in races over a mile with Frankuus taking the Gp3 Prix De Conde over 1m 1f yesterday and Cunco running with great credit in 2nd in the Listed 1m 2f Zetland Stakes on the same day. Today Monarchs Glen took a 1m 1f maiden in the style of a potential Derby/Leger horse.
The Frankel’s generally have a Dosage score of middle distance horses with Frankuus having a DI of 1.00 which is a Derby pedigree for a Galileo line horse. Cunco similarly has a DI of 1.00 despite being out of the speedy Danehill Dancer mare Chrysanthemum, Monarch’s Glen DI 0.90 and the very promising Eminent DI of 0.88 have St Leger written all over them.
Frankel will be a stamina influence and he’s far more likely to produce a Derby winner than a 2,000 Guineas winner.” 9 October 2016
“After all the hype in the UK the real record of Frankel’s first crop is not that of a future champion sire. Out of 5 individual 2yo GP1 runners the nearest any of them came to winning a GP1 was 5 1/4l behind the winner. In Europe as a whole Frankel has has 35 runners and 16 winners ( 45%) a long way from the 100% type strike rate that has been on UK lips. He has sired three pattern race winners A Gp2 winner, 3 Gp3 winners and a listed race win, none of which were capable of making it in Gp1 company.
Thought his 2 in the 10f GP1 Grand Criterium on Sunday might have shown that a step up in trip would bring out huge improvement in the Frankel’s, it didn’t Cunco and Frankuus both finished one paced 5 1/4l and 6 3/4l behind Waldgeist on Sunday with donkeys like Taj Mahal ahead of them. With the winner Waldgeist massively turning around his previous defeat by Frankuus and also Prinz Hlodowig the 2nd in that race finished ahead of Frankuus this time. A case again of the Frankel’s not progressing at the same rate as their peers. Maybe next year something will click in them or maybe the soft ground might have been against them in France but the odds are increasingly against the Frankel’s living up to the hype. Season Conclusion 1/11/2016
“Flat track bullies imo!” 1/11/2016
“Well, I doubt he has many Classic contenders at least for the Guineas, so, we won’t have to read or hear about him. Judging by Roger Charlton’s pageant for dodging races , Fair Eva won’t be “ready” -no guarantee that she would get the trip anyway with her mother being a sprinter. Seven Heavens may not be seen again in a decent race after that behaviour. Queen Kindly may come on but not in classics.” 1/1/2016
“Lovely to see the brave posters come out of the woodwork when the chips are down and the races have been run”
Brave? Saying what is in front of you since November 2016 is not brave! You need to realise that emotional hang up that you clearly have for the horse and deal with cold realities. The first crop has been a disappointment and that was blatantly obvious since November 2016! The hype has been unjustified.
Where were you guys before hey?
Agreeing with the contributors on sites with real experts in the breeding game http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057547113. Many of them made a number of predictions as recent as January 2016 to July 2017 that have come true. Some even predicted that Fair Eva won’t get the mile as recent as September.
Anything said, you’d have poor souls like you screaming dramatically! Just as well you stayed off the aforementioned link
What a bunch of after-timers
Nope.Even if that was true, how does it makes the statements wrong?Well done Twice Over and Hein. Hope you’ve got it nicely out of your system
You going to whine like a women getting dumped unexpectedly or are you going to deal with what was discussed. ?
The Judge is right – incredibly harsh. You want facts? Here are a few: 22 out of 58 have RPR’s over 90 and we are in May.
Lightly raced in low graded races. Big deal! Show us the stat for their performances in listed races and higher grades
Seven Heavens is included in that list! The thoroughly exposed Cunco is in that list. Exposed Frankuss, a typical flogged Mark Johnson horse is in that list, Majoris is still hovering around that list.When you pay over a million quid (Toulifaut)and the dam was a proven Stakes producer , it is the least to expect
He has a 31% career winner strike rate.
Low rated rates. Well done, his horses can win maidens. For £125,000 a pop for a first time stallion, and the hype that he has got, you bloody well expect that!
More 2 year old group winners than any other sire since 1990. 14.6% Group winners to runners
Have you seen the quality of the mares sent to him? It is actually unprecedented! He is way down the list for first time 2 year old prize money in the UK in 2016 and was propped up because of the Japanese Group 1 winner (huge prizemoney) Also, it is what they do at 3 that counts
All extraordinary stats. And some of you are calling him dross or crap?
I called him hyped.
And yes T/O – that day at Ascot was full to capacity. Check YOUR facts before posting sir.
Learn to read! I pointed out that it was the highest attendance from previous BCS! That number is what attendance King George Stakes Day. Bar Royal Ascot , 30 ,000 is a great attendance at any racing meeting. Just, for a horse that “transcends racing” and everyone knew that it was going to be his last race, poor show by Ascot for not going all out, especially with the 2nd Season launch of their Champions Series
As for the “gush” on the other thread. A word or two of advice – DON’T READ IT!!!
But, one needs to find something amusing to read
It’s been on there for years so you must know by now it is full of fans for the horse.
Who get hysterical when facts are put in front of them. People are way too emotionally invested. The amount of times you read “he ran like his father” when that was patiently nonsense, and proven in later races.Racing fans who love to get excited by our sport and by horses who, yes, transcend it. Everyone of my non-racing friends knows who Frankel was. So sad to see such dreadful negativity.
Reality boss, I do reality. Great horse, but the hype from people who know next to nothing about breeding getting jumped up because people have a different view , and refuse to address it (in fairness you have at least engaged) undermines the point of the site
Hopefully, breeders and trainers will get their act together with these Frankels, hopefully Royal Ascot will be kind to him, god help his fans if it is not
Sounds like you’ve got some kind of deeply held resentment towards Frankel. Perhaps annoyed that he was better than Twice Over?
Sounds like you’ve got some kind of deeply held resentment towards Frankel. Perhaps annoyed that he was better than Twice Over?
Go deal with the facts in front of you!
I’d take the opinion of people with limited knowledge on breeding with a pinch of salt
It was Twice Over and Midday’s performances that ensured Juddmonte that Cecil still had it when they sent Frankel to him
Twice Over was beaten by top class Global Group 1 winners like Ravens Pass and Henrythenavigator, Sea The Stars, Zenyatta (I really don’t believe that, I don’t rate her form, 2 races against the boys, and the one that she won was a field full of turf horses all at the end of their season) and New Approach. No shame there. His sire had limited success as a Stallion so he more than compensated for his performances at Group 1 level. He should have retired after the BSC in 2011 .
Frankel retired unbeaten, so any of his offspring who don’t do the same are rubbish.
Right?
I’ll try and not get involved with the anti-Frankel party as I thought this thread was to discuss Fair Eva.
I see no reason not to give the filly another go at the trip, probably in the Irish Guineas; and if it looks like she might fail to be competitive at the top level over the trip then she could drop back to contest the Jersey or Commonwealth at Ascot.
I’m sure there are good races to be won with her.
Frankel retired unbeaten, so any of his offspring who don’t do the same are rubbish.
Right?
Where was that stated or implied?
Try harder!
Experienced and wise as those breeders no doubt are on the thread you mention, Twice Over, Frankel’s ‘chickens’ have only just flown the coop. It’s a bit early to be forecasting that they’re already home to roost.
I’ll try and not get involved with the anti-Frankel party as I thought this thread was to discuss Fair Eva.
I see no reason not to give the filly another go at the trip, probably in the Irish Guineas; and if it looks like she might fail to be competitive at the top level over the trip then she could drop back to contest the Jersey or Commonwealth at Ascot.
I’m sure there are good races to be won with her.
Would be better off trying to take on the girls in a mile race like the Irish Guineas or the Coronation as oppose to trying to take on the boys at the Commonwealth or Jersey . Perhaps a route down to sprinting in the same way as Joyeuse in 2014 just to get the confidence up (so long as there is no penalties involved, listed race at Haydock?) but with a mid summer shot at something like the Falmouth? Can’t see how she is going to reverse the positions in Ireland. She is a struggle to get out of the parade ring without her warming up, what would she be like on a boat or plane to Ireland?
Experienced and wise as those breeders no doubt are on the thread you mention, Twice Over, Frankel’s ‘chickens’ have only just flown the coop. It’s a bit early to be forecasting that they’re already home to roost.
There would be none of this talk if he had not been so hyped (In fairness, Juddmonte have nothing to do with that, and their expertise in breeding is outstanding, Dansili has been a great servant) The amount of money that is charged (can you blame them?
) and the amount of money that departed in the sales rings for a stallion who is unproven (not to mention to dams some of whom themselves are unproven) The hype by the media is unreasonable not to mention the wrath anyone who is remotely critical of their beloved horse.Coolmore are experts in hype (though their website and catalogues are well put together, as are O’Brien’s latest “Most/Best……that I have ever trained” spiel .Churchill is his “most imposing horse that he ever had”.We all got a kick about Air Force Blue. Lord help us with Australia, “Heir apparent”(tm) (brilliant billing on the back of their trucks) comes out with his crop or the latest of the great Montjeu, Camelot. So far, they have been subtle
As for Frankel’s first crop…………..Royal Ascot will be the test, and perhaps extend it to Glorious Goodwood (Monarch Glen, would be prepared to give him a free pass for the bog in Sandown) . A couple of Group 2 and 3’s all will be well.
Where was that stated or implied?
I think that it’s the underlying current in this thread. I may, of course, be wrong.
Roger Charlton just reported that FE was blowing very hard after the race and was scoped. They found she had an abnormal amount of gunk in her nostrils which may well have affected her. To be fair he is not wanting to use it as an excuse, just saying that they haven’t given up on her just yet and next stop will be one of the mile races at Royal Ascot.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I’m underwhelmed by Frankel the stallion but I’m not writing him off.
Still, a question to Joni and the Frankel ultras:
At the end of this season do you think Frankel’s covering fee will:
a. stay unchanged
b. be reduced
c. increase
I’m underwhelmed by Frankel the stallion but I’m not writing him off.
Still, a question to Joni and the Frankel ultras:
At the end of this season do you think Frankel’s covering fee will:
a. stay unchanged
b. be reduced
c. increase
a) or c) I would say. Well not just me, the overwhelming sentiment is that Frankel is a huge success at stud despite him not winning the first two classics and despite him not “stamping” all his stock. Of course there are one or two runts but most have shown ability and his book is full this year. This recent article backs that theory – http://www.racinguk.com/news/article/50758/frankel-success-story-shows-no-sign-of-slowing-down-as-classics-loom
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
)
) and the amount of money that departed in the sales rings for a stallion who is unproven (not to mention to dams some of whom themselves are unproven) The hype by the media is unreasonable not to mention the wrath anyone who is remotely critical of their beloved horse.
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