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A couple more of his runners, Count octave and Cunco got spanked by the Galileos today.
Lot of pressure on Cracksman next week in the Dante stakes to uphold the Frankel legacy. Can imagine that going off a silly sort of hype price though, something around evens, will you be willing to take that though given how laboured he looked at Epsom? I’m not sure.
Rather surprised with Gosden. He really has flogged Cunco. He ran something like 6 or 7 times at 2, never gave him a break. It was a bit much asking Cunco to run after a quick turn around from Sandown which was a bit of a bog irrespective of the so called “good” description. Would have been better off seeing Monarchs Glen try the Lingfield Trial (at least get him a potential listed win or place) As for anything Qatar Racing touches , meh.
As for Cracksman, this won’t be a popular thought, anything by Roger Charlton………..
(Al Kazeem , aside, who by the way was a Dubawi)Gosden said last year that he was keeping Cunco busy, because he was not likely to progress at 3YO. I find it odd that the horse was in the Chester Vase, I would have thought Gosden has better 3yo colts but perhaps not.
Anyway, no need to worry about the Charlton curse with Cracksman. He is trained by John Gosden.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Twice over, you need an holiday mate so much rubbish about frankel, top top racehorse give him few more years regarding breeding classics.
Every top champion racehorse when it retires will always have the choice book of mares that are around at that time so banging on about how Frankel only had the best mares (like he was a totally special case) is redundant in my view.
The fact that Australia & Camelot are priced at £60k is simply because they were inferior racehorses compared to Frankel and as a result can’t command the same fee when they went to stud – had Camelot won the Leger and then retired unbeaten you could have put your mortgage on the fact Coolmore would have set his fee probably even higher than Frankel’s.
Once again simply far too early to be slating Frankel as a sire that is underperforming – I would agree with you that there is probably too much media play given to his stock but that is as a result of what he did on the course and the high win percentage his two year olds had last year but that is human nature as people want the Frankel success story to continue.
I have not seen any of the Frankel’s ‘blow up’ before a race, on their toes in the paddock and a bit keen to the start yes (but then that could describe a large majority of horses racing today and we don’t tar and feather their sires in the same way for showing that trait) and in my mind it simply isn’t a good enough reason to call into question their temperament.
Cunco was fully exposed by Gosden running him far too many times last year and after a hard race first time out at Sandown it was a big ask for him to go again so soon especially given that his winning has all been done on ground on the softer side of good – thought Count Octave ran well (only beaten 5L in 5th) considering he was badly placed at the back, on a course that was never going to suit him and the fact that he was taking a big jump up from winning a Class 5 Wolverhampton maiden to a G3, think he is worth another shot in this type of grade.
Nothing I have seen from Aiden’s Derby contenders has impressed me so far (wouldn’t be surprised if he goes mob handed at Epsom this year) and it is likely that once again the Dante could be the most informative trial. Whilst Cracksman still needs to improve the form is holding up and I think he would have learned a whole heck of a lot from Epsom and that he was still able to win and overcome adversity is to his credit, I get the feeling he might turn out to be a win ugly type of horse that never looks overly impressive – by all account he is very laid back at home and probably saves a bit for himself on the course as well (must take after his dam’s side of the family).
I think Frankel’s first book of mares in 2013, which included 62 G1 winning/producing mares (one more than Galileo received in the same year), was pretty special!
An interesting site for all the Frankel fans
I think Frankel’s first book of mares in 2013, which included 62 G1 winning/producing mares (one more than Galileo received in the same year), was pretty special!
My point being that STS, Dubawi etc would also have been visited by the very best G1 winning mares that were around at that time, maybe there wasn’t the same overall total number (in more recent times we have had a lot more multiple G1 winning mares grace the turf) but it would have been the very best available and no different to Frankel
Nope, not even Dubawi got a fraction of that number of G1 winning/producing mares in his first books, and Galileo only received a handful. Frankel’s first book is quite exceptional.
Didn’t say Frankel’s weren’t exceptional or they got the same number as him just that they would have had the best G1 mares available at that time – I would hazard a guess that there just wasn’t the same number of multiple G1 winning mares around but what there was were made available to the top new stallions prospects.
Lets face it in Danedream, Midday, Stacelita and Zarkava alone you account for a combined total of 22 G1 wins
Dubawi had 27 black type winners in his first book of 140 mares, there were probably a few G1 winners among them. More difficult to get data for Galileo, but not even Coolmore supported him in his first few years, it was left to Jim Bolger to send him a few good mares.
Kingman, another new Juddmonte stallion, had 22 G1 winning/producing mares in his first book.
A couple more of his runners, Count octave and Cunco got spanked by the Galileos today.
Lot of pressure on Cracksman next week in the Dante stakes to uphold the Frankel legacy. Can imagine that going off a silly sort of hype price though, something around evens, will you be willing to take that though given how laboured he looked at Epsom? I’m not sure.
Rather surprised with Gosden. He really has flogged Cunco. He ran something like 6 or 7 times at 2, never gave him a break. It was a bit much asking Cunco to run after a quick turn around from Sandown which was a bit of a bog irrespective of the so called “good” description. Would have been better off seeing Monarchs Glen try the Lingfield Trial (at least get him a potential listed win or place) As for anything Qatar Racing touches , meh.
As for Cracksman, this won’t be a popular thought, anything by Roger Charlton………..
(Al Kazeem , aside, who by the way was a Dubawi)Gosden said last year that he was keeping Cunco busy, because he was not likely to progress at 3YO. I find it odd that the horse was in the Chester Vase, I would have thought Gosden has better 3yo colts but perhaps not.
Anyway, no need to worry about the Charlton curse with Cracksman. He is trained by John Gosden.
Good man, I was wrong on two fronts
Cracksman, sorry, got mixed up with Charlton’s Frankel who was sold to Godolpin. Cracksman belongs to Golden Horn owner.
Twice over, you need an holiday mate so much rubbish about frankel, top top racehorse give him few more years regarding breeding classics.
Rubbish?
Big words to use. No doubt you know next to nothing about breeding or racing. But come on , step up. Explain yourself!
Come back to me in October when the predictions made on the current crop are realised ! Until then, best sit down and leave the discussion to the informed adults !
Every top champion racehorse when it retires will always have the choice book of mares that are around at that time so banging on about how Frankel only had the best mares (like he was a totally special case) is redundant in my view.
That is just patiently NOT true!. Frankel’s immediate access has been unprecedented. If what you said was correct, then Galileo would not be mating 200 + mares , in Europe , a year, if every champion (that was not of similar pedigree as Galileo – not sure if there are too many)
Dubawi was never really expected to do what he has done. Galileo had to fight off Montjeu and deal with shuttling back and forth to Australia where he did not do a lot. (For the record he did get an Oaks winner, and they produced a St Leger winner, Sixties Icon) Danehill Dancer was Champion Sire in 2009. All Coolmore stallions. Coolmore tend to wait until their stallions have proven themselves before using their own mares with them eg Fastnet Rock is an example of a slow build up in Europe
“The fact that Australia & Camelot are priced at £60k is simply because they were inferior racehorses compared to Frankel “
Derby winners are not “inferior”. Camelot is a Derby – Guineas winner and would have won the St Leger if he the winners were not drug cheats and were punished for interference. Admitingly, 2012 was a poor year, hence why I reckon they they went the Triple Crown route with Camelot as oppose to the all important WFA races in July-September (Derby of 2012 did not produce many Group 1 winners, Main Sequence holds up some form but that was in the US) Granted Camelot did not really train on at 4, but at least he was tried at different distances. Australia , for all the hype is impeccably bred, not just on the father’s side but his mother was one of the best Oaks winners in years. Their price is a business decision and nothing else. Why knock up the price beyond £60K until (a) they are not proven and (b) Galileo is still about and (c) Juddmonte were going to charge a lot for Frankel, a horse who was known to be bit of a boyo (He was nearly gelded at 2 !)
Special Circumstance? Like what? Brigadier Gerard had a superior career he was not a great stallion. Dancing Brave was a disappointment as a Stallion, despite siring a Double Derby winner (who Eddery did not select at Epsom lol) Rock of Gibraltar, for all the hassle with Ferguson and Magnier/McManus did little. Sadly,not ever great champion becomes a good stallion. Credit though, if you or I own him, we would do the same as Juddmonte and strike while the iron is hot and make our money quickly. He will generate about 15 million in a given year.
Once again simply far too early to be slating Frankel as a sire that is underperforming
There is an element of valid point there, but, with the price that he costs and the other champion horses soon to make their introduction to the breeding scene, there has been under performance at Stakes level . And what I mean, there is , the attitude of the horses and how they run.
“I have not seen any of the Frankel’s ‘blow up’ before a race”
Seaven Heavens in the Dewhurst? Perhaps “blow up” is a strong term
“but then that could describe a large majority of horses racing today and we don’t tar and feather their sires in the same way for showing that trait”
They are not costing £125K a pop, despite being a first crop and getting all the media hype
“and in my mind it simply isn’t a good enough reason to call into question their temperament.”
Eh, it is actually, many of them are at it.
” Count Octave ran well (only beaten 5L in 5th) considering he was badly placed at the back, on a course that was never going to suit him and the fact that he was taking a big jump up from winning a Class 5 Wolverhampton maiden to a G3, think he is worth another shot in this type of grade.”
I make no comment about that horse. Sure, try again. The only horse that I have seen that seemed to show a willingness to knuckle down was Charlton’s horse that was recently acquired by Godolpin
“Nothing I have seen from Aiden’s Derby contenders has impressed me so far (wouldn’t be surprised if he goes mob handed at Epsom this year)”
Agreed. Joseph has a nice horse called Rekindling. Think he runs in the Dante. Of course he will mob hand the Derby, after all, many of them will have won the trials races in the UK and Ireland by then. They are entitled to be there.
“I get the feeling he might turn out to be a win ugly type of horse that never looks overly impressive – “
It can be impressive though. I respect horses like that . Always giving , always trying. A professional race horse. Hardy Eustace never looked flash but what a horse.
“by all account he is very laid back at home and probably saves a bit for himself on the course as well “
A sign of a fine horse. Temperament is key! For all the slagging that has been done or accused of being done about Frankels, I won’t dispute that some of the horses are talented. I am taken by Monarch Glen based on his two races as a 2 year old, especially his first race where he lost by a nose. He has an engine, but needs to learn how to use it.
Dubawi had 27 black type winners in his first book of 140 mares, there were probably a few G1 winners among them. More difficult to get data for Galileo, but not even Coolmore supported him in his first few years, it was left to Jim Bolger to send him a few good mares.
Kingman, another new Juddmonte stallion, had 22 G1 winning/producing mares in his first book.
Really looking forward to seeing what Kingman can do. Hope to god injuries and vulnerabilities to same are not passed on to his progeny.
Bolger didn’t do too badly with the Galileo’s he got
asn’t the same number of multiple G1 winning mares around but what there was were made available to the top new stallions prospects.
Lets face it in Danedream, Midday, Stacelita and Zarkava alone you account for a combined total of 22 G1 wins
All achieved no earlier than 2008 (horses born circa 2005-2006) Galileo was in stud since 2002.
There were other super fillies and mares knocking around between 1998-2009 eg Urban Moon (she also produced two other Group 1 winning horses along with Galileo and STS) Flame of Tara, Zarkasha. Remember, Saddlers Well was a top broodmare sire as was Danehill as was, gasp, Night Shift (whom Coolmore owned)
It would take ages, but, even with access to sites like Racing Post , some data could be got . You would also have to take into account all those mares that are sent to top horses that did little on the track but proved to be excellent broodmares eg Kind.
Every top champion racehorse when it retires will always have the choice book of mares that are around at that time so banging on about how Frankel only had the best mares (like he was a totally special case) is redundant in my view.
That is just patiently NOT true!. Frankel’s immediate access has been unprecedented. If what you said was correct, then Galileo would not be mating 200 + mares , in Europe , a year, if every champion (that was not of similar pedigree as Galileo – not sure if there are too many)I said choice book of mares that were available at the time not all of them, my point being that the breeders best available mare would most often be chosen to visit whoever the top stallion is (however, going to Galileo would probably depend on an invite and whether they could afford his massive fee and those mares that had been successfully bred to him previously would probably get first dibs so to speak).
“The fact that Australia & Camelot are priced at £60k is simply because they were inferior racehorses compared to Frankel ”
Derby winners are not “inferior”. Camelot is a Derby – Guineas winner and would have won the St Leger if he the winners were not drug cheats and were punished for interference.
Didn’t say Derby winners were inferior, I said Australia and Camelot were inferior to Frankel and they were end of story. Agree that Camelot should have won the Leger but wasn’t given a particularly good ride by JOB imho and had he won it he would have been retired and a fee in Frankel’s range would have been totally justified as a starting point.
Special Circumstance? Like what? Brigadier Gerard had a superior career he was not a great stallion. Dancing Brave was a disappointment as a Stallion, despite siring a Double Derby winner (who Eddery did not select at Epsom lol) Rock of Gibraltar, for all the hassle with Ferguson and Magnier/McManus did little. Sadly,not ever great champion becomes a good stallion. Credit though, if you or I own him, we would do the same as Juddmonte and strike while the iron is hot and make our money quickly. He will generate about 15 million in a given year.
Agree that not all great champions make great stallions and that is even more true for great racemares – Dancing Brave suffered from the rare Marie’s Disease which probably didn’t help his stud career and then was shuttled of to Japan which was a mistake. He was responsible for Commander In Chief, White Muzzle and Wemyss Bright to name a few but The Brave himself wasn’t from a great family that did much on or off the track.
“I have not seen any of the Frankel’s ‘blow up’ before a race”
Seaven Heavens in the Dewhurst? Perhaps “blow up” is a strong term
His issues tend to be more once the race starts – he obviously doesn’t like being held up as he was miles better at Ascot when leading but I would imagine that he might be given one more chance but I can fully envisage a vets visit in his future if he doesn’t learn.
“but then that could describe a large majority of horses racing today and we don’t tar and feather their sires in the same way for showing that trait”They are not costing £125K a pop, despite being a first crop and getting all the media hype
To be honest I thought £125k was towards the lower end of what they could have asked (and got) fee wise but whether you buy into the media hype or not an unbeaten officially rated champion at 2, 3 & 4 yrs horse that is the highest rated racehorse since ratings began and a winner of 9 consecutive G1 races (a European record) and a horse that did make it into the general public consciousness pretty much markets/sells himself.
“and in my mind it simply isn’t a good enough reason to call into question their temperament.”
Eh, it is actually, many of them are at it.
Agree to disagree on that one.
“Nothing I have seen from Aiden’s Derby contenders has impressed me so far (wouldn’t be surprised if he goes mob handed at Epsom this year)”
Agreed. Joseph has a nice horse called Rekindling. Think he runs in the Dante. Of course he will mob hand the Derby, after all, many of them will have won the trials races in the UK and Ireland by then. They are entitled to be there.
Just saying no standout whereas when he does believe he has one to go to war with he only tends to have a couple in the race
“I get the feeling he might turn out to be a win ugly type of horse that never looks overly impressive – “
It can be impressive though. I respect horses like that . Always giving , always trying. A professional race horse. Hardy Eustace never looked flash but what a horse.
Agreed (same with Reference Point who was a fav of my growing up) as you never know just what is left in the tank but on the flip side having race upon race like that can catch up to you but being a group flat horse it is unlikely to race enough times to where that will be a real issue.
“by all account he is very laid back at home and probably saves a bit for himself on the course as well “
A sign of a fine horse. Temperament is key! For all the slagging that has been done or accused of being done about Frankels, I won’t dispute that some of the horses are talented. I am taken by Monarch Glen based on his two races as a 2 year old, especially his first race where he lost by a nose. He has an engine, but needs to learn how to use it.
Agreed re Monarchs Glen but he needs to learn to settle and probably will only be fully effective when he hears his feet rattle
I said choice book of mares that were available at the time not all of them, my point being that the breeders best available mare would most often be chosen to visit whoever the top stallion
Yes, that is what you said. What I said was that neither Galileo and Dubawi got the kind or amount of “choice book of mares that were available at the time” in their first crop. Coolmore themselves have an excellent band of broadmares,Galileo did not get a sniff of them until he was a proven group winner.
“The fact that Australia & Camelot are priced at £60k is simply because they were inferior racehorses compared to Frankel ”
Derby winners are not “inferior”. Camelot is a Derby – Guineas winner and would have won the St Leger if he the winners were not drug cheats and were punished for interference.Again, as I said, the fact that Australia and Camelot are priced the way that they are has little to do with their records on the track, it was a business decision, one that Coolmoore often get right. The more assess these horses are given to studs that would not normally afford or risk new comers, the better for Coolmore, the better will their chances be to (a) Coolmore buying their progeny at the sales where the dam is proven and (b) more chances of the horse’s progeny winning races
he would have been retired and a fee in Frankel’s range would have been totally justified as a starting point.
No, it would not have! Frankel’s is not justified either. Neither are proven stallions
His issues tend to be more once the race starts – he obviously doesn’t like being held up as he was miles better at Ascot when leading but I would imagine that he might be given one more chance but I can fully envisage a vets visit in his future if he doesn’t learn.
Excuse the pun, but cut one’s losses , geld him and let him race for a few years or just give him the time that Noble Mission enjoyed. Perhaps look for another trainer to see what they can do? Stoute? (In no way suggesting anything bad about Gosden)
To be honest I thought £125k was towards the lower end of what they could have asked (and got) fee wise
Based on what? He had proven nothing as a stallion.
but whether you buy into the media hype or not an unbeaten officially rated champion at 2, 3 & 4 yrs horse that is the highest rated racehorse since ratings began and a winner of 9 consecutive G1 races (a European record) and a horse that did make it into the general public consciousness pretty much markets/sells himself.
It means SFA when you are looking to buy a yearling at the sales and stumping up a lot of money for that privilege only to be thinking that perhaps , mid way through a 3 year old campaign (or 2 for Senator) that gelding might be a good idea. THe Frankel v Finsceal Beo horse has yet to show themselves, that horse cost over a million quid
Just saying no standout whereas when he does believe he has one to go to war with he only tends to have a couple in the race
Do not disagree
“The fact that Australia & Camelot are priced at £60k is simply because they were inferior racehorses compared to Frankel ”
Derby winners are not “inferior”. Camelot is a Derby – Guineas winner and would have won the St Leger if he the winners were not drug cheats and were punished for interference.Again, as I said, the fact that Australia and Camelot are priced the way that they are has little to do with their records on the track, it was a business decision, one that Coolmoore often get right. The more assess these horses are given to studs that would not normally afford or risk new comers, the better for Coolmore, the better will their chances be to (a) Coolmore buying their progeny at the sales where the dam is proven and (b) more chances of the horse’s progeny winning races
he would have been retired and a fee in Frankel’s range would have been totally justified as a starting point.
No, it would not have! Frankel’s is not justified either. Neither are proven stallionsTo be honest I thought £125k was towards the lower end of what they could have asked (and got) fee wise
Based on what? He had proven nothing as a stallion.
All new stallions are in the same boat initially as they are all unproven so you would have to initially set a fee based on what they did on the racecourse and maybe the family history – arguably the better the performances on track combined with being from a good well related family will allow connections to set the fee at a higher rate (as high as you can get away with no doubt) and whether you personally agree with that or not there will always be people out there in the breeding world that will take the chance whilst others may say no far too expensive and go back to a tried and tested stallion on the lower end fee wise.
Having group winners in your first batch of 2 yr olds no matter what shape or size they come in will encourage other breeders to send their mares to a second/third season stallion and maybe overlook a few of the stock that are headstrong etc..
With Camelot and Australia your pointed to their fee price being a good business decision and for the most part I do agree with you based on what they won as racehorses but if Camelot was an unbeaten Triple Crown winner, I can’t believe that you would be naive enough to think that Coolmore would have quoted anything less than £100k fee for him and no doubt they would have been having to turn requests down and restricting him to around 120-130 coverings a season.
but whether you buy into the media hype or not an unbeaten officially rated champion at 2, 3 & 4 yrs horse that is the highest rated racehorse since ratings began and a winner of 9 consecutive G1 races (a European record) and a horse that did make it into the general public consciousness pretty much markets/sells himself.
It means SFA when you are looking to buy a yearling at the sales and stumping up a lot of money for that privilege only to be thinking that perhaps , mid way through a 3 year old campaign (or 2 for Senator) that gelding might be a good idea. THe Frankel v Finsceal Beo horse has yet to show themselves, that horse cost over a million quidAgreed once a stallion is actually established but before that period you go based on the fact that its a Frankel (who in turn is a son of super sire Galileo who was also by a super sire Sadler’s Wells) out of a ‘insert name of multiple pattern winning mare’ and out of his first crop he produced multiple pattern winners – all positive things that may encourage you to make a purchase and maybe at an amount that you may not have intended to go to beforehand.
Until there is overwhelming evidence that his offspring do not make the grade, there are still going to be breeders that (for better or for worse) want to be a part of the Frankel story and are willing to pay his fee – interesting to note that only Frankel and Kingman’s fees have remained the same for 2017 whereas the others at Banstead have all had a reduction.
(Al Kazeem , aside, who by the way was a Dubawi)
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