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Did Roger make a mistake with Fair Eva not giving her a run before today’s run i think she would of been a lot closer today with a run would love to see her go over for the Irish 1000.
Yeah, she’s just lacking class, but some people didn’t get that right in the first place..
In fact Frankel has produced lots of crap, and his only high class horse is Cracksman!Did Roger make a mistake with Fair Eva not giving her a run before today’s run i think she would of been a lot closer today with a run would love to see her go over for the Irish 1000.
Nah, would not have made much odds. Not sure what trial race she would have won. He might have been slightly under pressure to have a Frankel in the Guineas (doubtful as Juddmonte ain’t like that, normally) Didn’t hear much hype from Teddy at all unlike Joyous (though she did when a trial)
You would not know how the weather will be in Ireland in 2 weeks time, and Charlton won’t want to go through the nightmare like he did with Time Test, last year with the Tatterssals. Sure Fair Eva was playing up today, in fairness Doyle minded her. Lord knows what she would be like on a boat/plane
She ran alright, but that is about it, not sure she got the mile. Her mother never did at the top level, and her damn sire was hit and miss (even though he won two Group 1s) She is not going to amount to much and Charlton ain’t the man to all of a sudden change her fortunes. 6-7 furlongs for now and Group 2-3 level
She would be on a hiding to nowhere. Those three Coolmore horses would be good good to beat each other in the Irish. Would like to see how Sea of Grace (Haggas) fared back at the Curragh though, not sure she has the speed though. African Rose, herself, has foaled 3-4 horses now , and bar Fair Eva , none of them have done anything of note . One of them, ex Juddmonte (I think, Stoute) is now in Meydan last I heared
Another Frankel hype job put in her place.Some of the sentimental mush that has been written on the Frankel thread is hilarious
Just hope Kingman fares better with his first crop
Yeah, she’s just lacking class, but some people didn’t get that right in the first place..
In fact Frankel has produced lots of crap, and his only high class horse is Cracksman!I think Toulifaut cost over a million quid
Had the dam’s best horse had been Ernest Hemingway (Galileo) and the others did nothingSan Remo has been an utter disaster for Coolmore, and his mother, although did nothing on the track, she is the dam of two group 1 winners (Make Believe & Dubai Heights)
Senator has already been gelded. and his dam was a Group 1 winner – sadly, just to see can Frankel’s horses win worthwhile prizes, maybe those owners who bred their Frankel foal might do the same, it might calm them down a bit, though makes them worthless after racing, but, who knows, a career of 2-5 years might recoup some of the money?
Count Octave’s dam was also the dam of Treasure Beach (Irish Derby winner)
Based on Mirage Dancer’s dam’s(Heat Haze, also a Group 1 winner) inability to produce worthwhile stock, I would not be holding my breath
Even by Stoute’s excellent high standards in having patience with older horses, Mori may not amount to much unless given a couple of years racing. (see who long it took Noble Mission) Mori’s dam is Group 1 winner Midday, and her other colt was Midterm (Galileo) who has not really moved on, already going to be tested in the stayers races (Chester) . Remains to be seen how good Midday is as a dam (at least she has produced a Group 3 winner)
Seven Heavens, his dam will be familiar to people as Heaven Sent, a regular bridesmaid in the Group 1 and 2 field (Not even Kinane could get her a Group 1), but was given plenty of time to race. She has mothered two others, the best being a David O’Mara handicap horse, Firmament
. SH was bred Chevely Stud and Juddmonte paid 620,000 guineas for him in late 2015. 
. Disaster would be kind. Frankly, geld him and see what happens because he is bonkers mentally. Try to win some decent handicappers and see would the owners in Hong Kong be stupid enough to pay good money for him for their “classic” season (for 4 year olds) At least we can see what kind of races a Frankel could deal with, without the expense of owning himLighting Fast, damn was the Chevely Group 1 winner, first time dam. LF is still in handicap company, and will likely stay there
However,
Icespire might not turn out to be too bad. Her dam did produce Special Duty a double Guineas winner (both by default funny enough) Line in the sand on her last race, Frankie did not help her.
Dream Castle , dam was a Group 2 winner and her other colt did nothing. DC might come to come good at Group 2-3 level this year. Who knows at 4?
Queen Kindly , dam was a Group 1 placer (and won a Group race that is now the Group 1 British Champion Sprint Stakes) . This has been the dam’s first foal. QK might do more in the sprints, somewhere in Europe, and well away from Jamie Spencer
Cracksman’s mother has only produced one horse that won a Group race and he was last seen in a Mydan handicap. At least Cracksman looked game at Epsom, but that race is a kiss of death for most winners. The 2015 winner is now in Hong Kong and struggling (new name of course)
Aljerzera has not been seen since the summer. The dam ,Dynaforce, is a Group 1 winner in the US, her other progeny have done nothing
I’d lean away from making excuses from these screwjob Frankels with the majority having some sort of temperament/attitude issue. Still, Fair Eva was very weak in the market, looked less fit than most and did run a decent race in the Guineas. Roger Charlton is not really a trainer with a great record first time out either.
I don’t think I could back Fair Eva in an average Coronation or Irish 1000 but I wouldn’t want to be a bullish layer either.
seems very harsh the comments on here. Fair eva a handicapper, a pile of rubbish, everyone sticking the knife in but she wasn’t beaten that far in a classic and I don’t remember the same people putting the boot in before she raced yesterday, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I agree some of the stuff about Frankel and his progeny has been overhyped. But you’ve got to dream haven’t you? as Ed Chamberlain said, he’s the one horse who transcends our sport, the one flat racer who the general public may have heard of.
seems very harsh the comments on here. Fair eva a handicapper, a pile of rubbish, everyone sticking the knife in but she wasn’t beaten that far in a classic and I don’t remember the same people putting the boot in before she raced yesterday, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I agree some of the stuff about Frankel and his progeny has been overhyped. But you’ve got to dream haven’t you? as Ed Chamberlain said, he’s the one horse who transcends our sport, the one flat racer who the general public may have heard of.
“I agree some of the stuff about Frankel and his progeny has been overhyped. But you’ve got to dream haven’t you?”
When it is loosing breeders money , to hell with dreams. Not all of them are going to sell over 200, 000 guineas! Some of them are going for less than what has been paid to have the mare covered. He horses are picking up similar trends, complete head cases ! The media, most of whom are not involved in the breeding game ought to shut up! The vomit that was spewed recently and the nerve to utter the word “Galileo” in the same sentence in the other thread, is a bit much. By the way, few saw Fair Eva , despite her short odds, as a Guineas horse and such views have been expressed here and elsewhere.
Ed Chamberlain? The King of Bland? Goes over and beyond trying to squeeze out every over the top compliment imaginable? He looks like he is going to break down in tears with emotion the way he describes things
“he’s the one horse who transcends our sport,”
Says who? There would be plenty of people in Ireland that would have a thing or three to say about that. S.T.S. and Galileo himself would be a start. S.T.S had absolutely nothing to prove after his 3 year old career. The old team who looked after Juddmonte’s Dancing Brave in the UK would also have something to say about that. What the hell has Brigadier Gerard got to do to get respect? Frankly, the opinions of causal race fans, many of whom haven’t a clue, ought to be taken with a pinch of salt .
By the way, the British Champion Stakes in 2012 only attracted about 30,000 to see his last race. Granted, it was more than what the Champion Stakes normally attracted, but, Ascot can take more people……….
Lets bear in mind this is his first year for the classic crop, already had a place in Japanese 1000g and two runners in both our guineas and the possibility of multiple runners in Oaks/Derby I think is a good return so far – is more expected of him because of his performance on the track…absolutely but it would be interesting to compare him at this stage of his stud career with his dad at the same point.
The comment about his horses being head cases is to say the least a little extreme, yes the majority are exuberant free going types but then by all accounts Frankel was the same and he was taught to harness that energy to be used at the right time so it would be down to the individual trainer to teach the horse to settle (no different to any other horse they have had that was a hard puller).
The transcends the sport comment is I think about horse racing being off the back page and onto the front page (like how a Grand National winner usually is on the front page of the following days papers), so in that case Frankel does warrant that title – BG is a bit before my time so unsure whether any of his performances hit the front page but with Dancing Brave I believe he got the headlines for getting beaten in the Derby rather than his Arc win (which personally I think has been a bit overhyped down the years).
Rightly or wrongly STS wasn’t heralded outside of the racing press/community because he wasn’t sexy/flashy enough in his performances to warrant him being promoted – his 8 wins were by a combined total of less than 13L, whilst Frankel alone won his second ever race by 13L, he also had a compelling story arc with Sir Henry coming back to training prominence whilst battling cancer and to a lesser extent the horse being named after the late US trainer Bobby Frankel (which would attract attention from the US).
With regards to Fair Eva, I think she stayed the trip fine but being her first run of the season she may have lacked vital race fitness and just got a little tied at the end – she was only beaten a little over 5L in 5th and there was a further 5L back to the 6th placed horse, so it is something to build on and her next race will probably tell you what level she will be at for the rest of the seaon.
seems very harsh the comments on here. Fair eva a handicapper, a pile of rubbish, everyone sticking the knife in but she wasn’t beaten that far in a classic and I don’t remember the same people putting the boot in before she raced yesterday, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I agree some of the stuff about Frankel and his progeny has been overhyped. But you’ve got to dream haven’t you? as Ed Chamberlain said, he’s the one horse who transcends our sport, the one flat racer who the general public may have heard of.
“I agree some of the stuff about Frankel and his progeny has been overhyped. But you’ve got to dream haven’t you?”
When it is loosing breeders money , to hell with dreams. Not all of them are going to sell over 200, 000 guineas! Some of them are going for less than what has been paid to have the mare covered. He horses are picking up similar trends, complete head cases ! The media, most of whom are not involved in the breeding game ought to shut up! The vomit that was spewed recently and the nerve to utter the word “Galileo” in the same sentence in the other thread, is a bit much. By the way, few saw Fair Eva , despite her short odds, as a Guineas horse and such views have been expressed here and elsewhere.
Ed Chamberlain? The King of Bland? Goes over and beyond trying to squeeze out every over the top compliment imaginable? He looks like he is going to break down in tears with emotion the way he describes things
“he’s the one horse who transcends our sport,”
Says who? There would be plenty of people in Ireland that would have a thing or three to say about that. S.T.S. and Galileo himself would be a start. S.T.S had absolutely nothing to prove after his 3 year old career. The old team who looked after Juddmonte’s Dancing Brave in the UK would also have something to say about that. What the hell has Brigadier Gerard got to do to get respect? Frankly, the opinions of causal race fans, many of whom haven’t a clue, ought to be taken with a pinch of salt .
By the way, the British Champion Stakes in 2012 only attracted about 30,000 to see his last race. Granted, it was more than what the Champion Stakes normally attracted, but, Ascot can take more people……….
You do realise that the powers that be at Ascot restricted the attendance to 32,000 instead of the capacity of 80,000 (that they have for the Royal meeting) because it wasn’t cost effective to set up all the temporary structures that are needed just for one day (they are a permanent set up for the whole week of the Royal meeting). Quite certain many more that were originally turned away would have attended to see his last ever race had that restriction not been in place.
Lets bear in mind this is his first year for the classic crop, already had a place in Japanese 1000g and two runners in both our guineas and the possibility of multiple runners in Oaks/Derby I think is a good return so far – is more expected of him because of his performance on the track…absolutely but it would be interesting to compare him at this stage of his stud career with his dad at the same point.
The comment about his horses being head cases is to say the least a little extreme, yes the majority are exuberant free going types but then by all accounts Frankel was the same and he was taught to harness that energy to be used at the right time so it would be down to the individual trainer to teach the horse to settle (no different to any other horse they have had that was a hard puller).
The transcends the sport comment is I think about horse racing being off the back page and onto the front page (like how a Grand National winner usually is on the front page of the following days papers), so in that case Frankel does warrant that title – BG is a bit before my time so unsure whether any of his performances hit the front page but with Dancing Brave I believe he got the headlines for getting beaten in the Derby rather than his Arc win (which personally I think has been a bit overhyped down the years).
Rightly or wrongly STS wasn’t heralded outside of the racing press/community because he wasn’t sexy/flashy enough in his performances to warrant him being promoted – his 8 wins were by a combined total of less than 13L, whilst Frankel alone won his second ever race by 13L, he also had a compelling story arc with Sir Henry coming back to training prominence whilst battling cancer and to a lesser extent the horse being named after the late US trainer Bobby Frankel (which would attract attention from the US).
With regards to Fair Eva, I think she stayed the trip fine but being her first run of the season she may have lacked vital race fitness and just got a little tied at the end – she was only beaten a little over 5L in 5th and there was a further 5L back to the 6th placed horse, so it is something to build on and her next race will probably tell you what level she will be at for the rest of the seaon.
Japan? I know that the game is more global, and that is great, I know that the standard is pretty high in Japan,and horrendously competitive with Deep Impact being the Galileo over there (Workforce was shipped back to Europe and Conduit has not had a lot of success) but, he is to stand stud in Europe and provide European horses (Classics are no longer the be all and end all the WFA Group 1s are just as important) . Provided that they perform well in pattern races such as listed, Group 2 and 3, then there would be no cause for alarm Europe is where Frankel’s main business shall be in. Some of the Group 1 winning Mares that have been sent to Frankel, are themselves unproven broodmares. However, some are not
The Japanese horses’ mother,Stacelita ,although her first born achieved nothing, she her self was a Regular Group 1 performer in Europe and America
The issue would not really be what he has done at Group 1 level.That would be unfair. If his horses were not flopping at Listed -Group 3 Level , then we would be saying, “well, so far so good with the first crop, who knows, they might make good 4 year olds”. What is worse, is their behaviour in the parade ring and in the stalls. Some of them have great engines, but so far don’t have the temperament. If they had that, that might hide the lack of speed that some of them have. That can be fixed through trial and error with future crops
“two runners in both our guineas”
Neither of whom got the mile. To be fair, Fair Eva is by a Sprinter, African Rose who did little over a mile at Group 1 level, despite her Sire Observational and step brother Twice Over. Despite that,if Fair Eva could achieve anything like what Twice Over did, then that is success.
“yes the majority are exuberant free going types but then by all accounts Frankel was the same and he was taught to harness that energy to be used at the right time so it would be down to the individual trainer to teach the horse to settle”
Proves what a job Cecil and his team AND Tom Queally did. Clearly , not every jockey can ride these horses (Havlin has done alright on them) Cecil was able to get Frankel sorted out in quick fashion. All the same, people may well think twice at the next sales or sending their best mare to him.
Fair Eva’s main problem is lack of physical progress from two to three. She was one of the least impressive physical specimens in the field, which caused her big drift in my opinion.
I also felt her run petered out.
Charlton came into the race on 54% strike rate for the past fortnight and has had plenty first time winners this season. I imagine she was fit enough.
Frankel has sired a good lot of winners but mostly at a lower level. Not many were tried highly last year. There was a fair proportion of dross as well, but people seem to forget how many Galileo offspring that Ballydoyle have, who turn out to be rubbish as well. Plenty million dollar colts have been crap over the past few seasons.
The only Frankel offspring I took to follow for this season were:-
Fair Eva, Dream Castle, Eminent, Cracksman and Aljazeera. Three have tried and failed in the Classic but at least they got to the Guineas and ran respectably.
Apparently, very few sires manage to get a Classic winner in their first crop, so it’s early days yet.
I have felt all of last season, and this, that The Derby looks the weakest Classic. I believe Cracksman holds the best chance of getting Frankel off to a flyer.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
I don’t need facts to see that you’re going on an unhinged rant.
Yes, you actually do. You also need a dictionary! Keep your emotions at check , you clearly have a problem with criticism of the horse!
Unhinged? A rant?
Using facts to spell out that Frankel’s progeny have been horrendous and absolute headcases, is hardly a rant. Have you seen them in the parade ring? Have you seen them going down to the stalls? Have you seen their performances at stakes level? Using the facts that quality horses, better quality than enjoyed by Galileo or even Sea The Stars in their first two crops, have been sent to Frankel?
These are facts, not a rant
Perhaps try and rebut what was said?
Respect your betters!
The transcends the sport comment is I think about horse racing being off the back page and onto the front page (like how a Grand National winner usually is on the front page of the following days papers), so in that case Frankel does warrant that title – BG is a bit before my time so unsure whether any of his performances hit the front page but with Dancing Brave I believe he got the headlines for getting beaten in the Derby rather than his Arc win (which personally I think has been a bit overhyped down the years).
Rightly or wrongly STS wasn’t heralded outside of the racing press/community because he wasn’t sexy/flashy enough in his performances to warrant him being promoted – his 8 wins were by a combined total of less than 13L, whilst Frankel alone won his second ever race by 13L, he also had a compelling story arc with Sir Henry coming back to training prominence whilst battling cancer and to a lesser extent the horse being named after the late US trainer Bobby Frankel (which would attract attention from the US).
The Return of Cecil was the big issue! Also, dominant was the fact that Britain actually had a top class horse, the first in a very very very long time and one that took on Coolmore’s lot.
Fair Eva’s main problem is lack of physical progress from two to three. She was one of the least impressive physical specimens in the field, which caused her big drift in my opinion.
I also felt her run petered out.
Charlton came into the race on 54% strike rate for the past fortnight and has had plenty first time winners this season. I imagine she was fit enough.
Frankel has sired a good lot of winners but mostly at a lower level. Not many were tried highly last year. There was a fair proportion of dross as well, but people seem to forget how many Galileo offspring that Ballydoyle have, who turn out to be rubbish as well. Plenty million dollar colts have been crap over the past few seasons.
The only Frankel offspring I took to follow for this season were:-
Fair Eva, Dream Castle, Eminent, Cracksman and Aljazeera. Three have tried and failed in the Classic but at least they got to the Guineas and ran respectably.
Apparently, very few sires manage to get a Classic winner in their first crop, so it’s early days yet.
I have felt all of last season, and this, that The Derby looks the weakest Classic. I believe Cracksman holds the best chance of getting Frankel off to a flyer.
Frankel does not have to produce an European classic winner this season to be a success. Placing in one would suffice along with some good Group 2 and 3 wins and horses that look like re-training as a 4 year old would be worth while would be a good season. Watching horse blow up before they even get to the stalls is a problem though. That is the huge noticeable issue, and as you pointed out, whether some of them have progressed from their 2 year old season (limited as it was)
At least with a horse like Monarch’s Glen, who is bound to be good enough to win a listed race (and a new jockey) , he was never penciled in as a Derby hope before the season, Gosden was realistic with him. It was worth a shot as Sandown (ground was soft) it did not pay off but at least they may have some foundation to work on going forward. At least Emimnent has run with credit and only had 3 races. You would think that he will enjoy getting special attention from his trainer as he won’t have as many contenders in his yard (I intentionally did not list him above because , although his dam has good pedigree, she did little on the track at 3 and her other foal failed on the track)
Galileo covers about 200 odd mares a season, obviously some will be dross. Coolmore have a lofty reputation of spending silly money on horses (Green Monkey
) with or without the Galileo name. Funny enough, their less expensive buys have been brilliantGalileo’s first crop were born in 2003. That crop produced An Irish Guineas winner, a French St Legar Winner, a British St Leger Winner and as a 3 year old , a Breeders Cup Turf Winner
Sea The Stars’s First Crop was born in 2011. In that Crop he produced the Oaks – King George Winner-Arc placed and a German Derby Winner. Another member of that 1st Crop has since won a French Group 1 (minor but a Group 1 none the less)
Montjue’s first crop, born in 2002 is even better. That contained English and Irish Derby winners, St Leger Winner, French St Leger Winner, a 2 year old Group 1 winner. In older years one of them won the Arc and King George
Although not a Classic in his first crop,Oasis Dream, 4 of them went onto win Group 1s, later
Cape Cross first crop was born in 2001. Out of that was Irish/Epsom Oaks winner Ouija Board
All I am saying is that it is way too early to be saying he is not a good stallion producing average fillies and colts and being all doom and gloom about it – a lot of the good mares that have visited him are 10/12F horses like Midday, Danedream, Stacelita & Zarkava so you really wouldn’t expect much at 2. Now if he hadn’t produced any patterned race winners to date then that would be cause for some concern.
All great stallions like Northern Dancer, Sadlers Wells & Galileo not only have produced champions but also their fair share of the bad and down right ugly and some of those were actually bred in the purple and that shows it doesn’t always mean breeding the best to the best will produce the best.
I doubt if there will be any racehorse that will have been as under the microscope for their stud career as Frankel is and will continue to be – he made a very good start as he had more two-year-old Group winners by the end of his first season than any other European sire since 1990 and he was also the second leading sire in Europe and the USA by 2016 yearling average (£528,357 for 25 sold).
Lets also bear in mind that Galileo didn’t become the leading sire in Britain & Ireland until 2008 (he raced in 2001), so we really all need to have a little more perspective and give him a fair chance before making these knee jerk reactions (either way) based on such a small current sample size.
Had the dam’s best horse had been Ernest Hemingway (Galileo) and the others did nothing
. SH was bred Chevely Stud and Juddmonte paid 620,000 guineas for him in late 2015. 
. Disaster would be kind. Frankly, geld him and see what happens because he is bonkers mentally. Try to win some decent handicappers and see would the owners in Hong Kong be stupid enough to pay good money for him for their “classic” season (for 4 year olds) At least we can see what kind of races a Frankel could deal with, without the expense of owning him
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