- This topic has 80 replies, 32 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Paul,
if you want to talk human rights, Amnesty holds the UK responsible for way more atrocities than anything ever done by the UAE:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/ … 01/2013/en
and that refers to real atrocities like murdering, maiming, raping, forcing to flee – not the preachy inventions / perversions of the term as under the UK /New Labour 1998 Act.
That’s a wholly irrelevant comparison.
Oh get over yourself. Where would racing be without Sheik Mo?
There would still be racing without him. There was racing before he came along there will be racing when he’s gone
I take it you won’t watch any races in which he has involvement then?
That’s a pathetic comment – there is no comparison.
It certainly is not and you know it. How many racing lives and jobs survive purely thanks to money from the Middle East? Dubai, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are keeping the industry alive and anyone with any sense knows it. Listen to John Gosden’s views on it. We would be stuffed without them. So bearing in mind how much our sport is influenced and funded by the Middle East if you really had any morals you would have nothing to do with it.
You also fail to mention the
billions
that Sheikh Mo has donated to charities. That wouldn’t really fit with your idea of this despicable, oppressive dictator though would it?
Sorry but I think YOUR comments are completely hypocritical.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Listen to John Gosden’s views on it. We would be stuffed without them.
I think he means
he
would be stuffed without them.
Mike
Listen to John Gosden’s views on it. We would be stuffed without them.
I think he means
he
would be stuffed without them.
Mike
Well him and the 300+ hard working men and women he employs.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
I too have issues with the Emirati regime (they still imprison, castrate and execute homosexuals, they have not signed on to most international human-rights and labor-rights treaties, they censor the press), but without them European horse racing as we know it would cease to exist. Remember, Thoroughbred racing began as a pastime for the English aristocracy, wand now that much of that class has either lost their money or moved their money to other pursuits, racing must rely on some other consistent source of funding. Clearly betting isn’t enough.
Oh get over yourself. Where would racing be without Sheik Mo?
There would still be racing without him. There was racing before he came along there will be racing when he’s gone
I take it you won’t watch any races in which he has involvement then?
That’s a pathetic comment – there is no comparison.
It certainly is not and you know it. How many racing lives and jobs survive purely thanks to money from the Middle East? Dubai, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are keeping the industry alive and anyone with any sense knows it. Listen to John Gosden’s views on it. We would be stuffed without them. So bearing in mind how much our sport is influenced and funded by the Middle East if you really had any morals you would have nothing to do with it.
You also fail to mention the
billions
that Sheikh Mo has donated to charities. That wouldn’t really fit with your idea of this despicable, oppressive dictator though would it?
Sorry but I think YOUR comments are completely hypocritical.
I see so he invests loads of money in UK racing and gives money to charity – that means we should all ignore his little "foibles" on matters like human rights abuses or restrictions on press freedoms.
Gaddafi also gave huge sums to charity as well – so I presume, following your logic, that makes him a good egg as well.
I suppose, considering the time of year, it’s appropriate to make a comparison with Judas – thank you, I’ll take your thirty pieces of silver.
Paul I am not ignoring his foibles at all but pointing out that our industry would be stuffed without him and your image of this ogre of a dictator may not be a balanced one. Actually many people talk of his warmth and compassionate nature. Sir Henry Cecil who had such a public fall out with him still speaks of him in glowing terms especially with the support he gave him during his brothers terminal illness.
But listen the point is you could throw your moral mud at pretty much anyone with more than a few millions and lots of it would stick. I have just spent time out in Qatar where forced labour and human trafficking are huge problems and yet the Emir there is a man loved by his people.
To accuse those who wish to take part in or watch Arab sponsored racing of lacking any morals is fine if you actually stood by what you said and refused to watch or take part in any of it yourself. But then you might have to include anything sponsored by Investec and let’s face it our own bookies are hardly squeaky clean are they?
Happy Easter anyway and please spend your silver wisely!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
But listen the point is you could throw your moral mud at pretty much anyone with more than a few millions and lots of it would stick.
Yep
Whilst I too find Dubai a thoroughly unappealing place and society: the grotesque, alien and uber-ostentatious skyline is sufficient to send the shudders down me, we citizens of the monied British Racing Island do need to be a little cautious if choosing to take the moral high ground because horseracing by its very nature ia a sport that both requires and attracts those with significant disposable wealth; and though I’m hardly of the Marxist opinion that "all property is theft" it is a fact that among those with great wealth there are uncomfortably many who have accrued it by what can be broadly described as dubious means
A cursory scratch beneath the surface into the ‘business dealings’ of any number of owners and connections then, now and forever would surely reveal that a plethora of ‘questionable’ types have trodden the turf throughout its long history
You want a horse, I’ll take your money, no questions asked
Paul I am not ignoring his foibles at all but pointing out that our industry would be stuffed without him and your image of this ogre of a dictator may not be a balanced one. Actually many people talk of his warmth and compassionate nature. Sir Henry Cecil who had such a public fall out with him still speaks of him in glowing terms especially with the support he gave him during his brothers terminal illness.
I think it is just supposition to say the industry would be stuffed without him. Had he not been around others would have filled the void.
How many who would be interested in getting seriously involved in racing have been put off having to face competition from such a large dominant organisation? (In fairness I would also say other large groups like Coolmore similarly put off those interested in investing in the highest level)
Racing may have been stuffed had he not been around, on the other hand it may not have been – nobody can say with any certainty.
I’m sure there are many stories of his compassion, there are equally many stories about his moods.
I also do not recall describing him as an ogre, there are many worse leaders than him but it is a matter of record that there are human rights issues in Dubai
But listen the point is you could throw your moral mud at pretty much anyone with more than a few millions and lots of it would stick. I have just spent time out in Qatar where forced labour and human trafficking are huge problems and yet the Emir there is a man loved by his people.
In truth moral mud can stick to anyone – it has nothing to do with wealth per-se and anyway all definitions of morality are subjective and it’s up to an individuals own moral compass at the end of the day.
On your point about the Emir being "loved by his people" I don’t doubt that for one moment as, like in Dubai, the leaders make sure they look after their own indigenous population to keep them onside. If they don’t they have to accept the consequences, as in Bahrain,
To accuse those who wish to take part in or watch Arab sponsored racing of lacking any morals is fine if you actually stood by what you said and refused to watch or take part in any of it yourself. But then you might have to include anything sponsored by Investec and let’s face it our own bookies are hardly squeaky clean are they?
I personally believe there is a difference between attending a race meeting at a course built in the circumstances and conditions in Dubai than attending racing in the UK sponsored by an Arab organisation.
I actually do "boycott" race meetings where I do not "approve" of the sponsors – for example I do not go to the Newmarket meeting sponsored by the Kingdom Of Bahrain and I have written articles critical of Newmarket racecourse accepting sponsorship from them.
In the case you cite, of Investec, the Derby meeting is a difficult one to avoid because of its importance in the domestic calendar and yes I do attend that meeting – maybe it is hypocritical of me. I don’t personally benefit from their involvement. I don’t accept the hospitality, I pay for my own food and I don’t take the freebies.
I appreciate it is a difficult subject and it is very hard to know where to draw lines in the sand as it were.
We each have our own boundaries where we are comfortable and I accept it is very easy to criticise the morals of others when morality itself is so subjective.
Happy Easter anyway and please spend your silver wisely!
I gave up materialism many years ago so hopefully I have no silver to cause me any angst
may I conclude by saying the points you make are valid and I’ve enjoyed debating them with you.
You also fail to mention the
billions
that Sheikh Mo has donated to charities. That wouldn’t really fit with your idea of this despicable, oppressive dictator though would it?
There is a certain comedy element to the notion of the unelected Crown Prince Sheikh Mohammed being incredibly generous to charity.
I think you’ll find that this is facilitated by him expropriating a vast amount of his country’s wealth in the first place. His 100% stake in Dubai Holding is possibly a clue…
Mike
Whilst I too find Dubai a thoroughly unappealing place and society: the grotesque, alien and uber-ostentatious skyline is sufficient to send the shudders down me, we citizens of the monied British Racing Island do need to be a little cautious if choosing to take the moral high ground because horseracing by its very nature ia a sport that both requires and attracts those with significant disposable wealth; and though I’m hardly of the Marxist opinion that "all property is theft" it is a fact that among those with great wealth there are uncomfortably many who have accrued it by what can be broadly described as dubious means
As you are probably aware, today’s Marxists meet in local cafes whereby they debate the issues of the day over glasses of Early Grey, lapsang souchong and various
tisanes
.
This behaviour only confirms their view that all proper tea is theft.
Mike
As you are probably aware, today’s Marxists meet in local cafes whereby they debate the issues of the day over glasses of Early Grey, lapsang souchong and various
tisanes
.
Mike
Oh no – they are my teas of choice – please don’t tell me that makes ma a Marxist
As you are probably aware, today’s Marxists meet in local cafes whereby they debate the issues of the day over glasses of Early Grey, lapsang souchong and various
tisanes
.
This behaviour only confirms their view that all proper tea is theft.
Very drole
Marx and Engels never got their hands dirty nor did an early shift, unless elevenses drinking proper tea discusiing property counts as early, which it probably did. Wrote and talked but never walked the walk thanks to the prop of wealthy parents
I wrote this morning’s epistle accompanied – as I usually am sometime ‘twixt 8am and 10am – by a fine-china mug of Betty’s of Harrogate Phoobsering Oolong Darjeeling, a proper tea
Marx would be proud of me: the angst of the leisured classes
Like the surface the horses will be racing on, I find the whole thing artificial. Michael Jackson had his fairground; Sheik Mo & Co. have their racetrack.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Paul makes a good point about human rights issues in Dubai. Lot of foreign construction workers are poorly treated/paid and find themselves on the streets. Living rough and unable to afford the fare home. Should not be allowed or swept under the carpet.
However,
Morals of other countries/religions are different to our current Western morality. How women sometimes dress and behave/allowed to behave over here would probably be frowned on just as much by Dubians.Yes, we should point out where human rights are ignored and do what we can to change it, but should not portray them as wholely bad people.
Even when we look back at our own recent past we see different morals – racism, sexism and homophobia not only tolerated but encouraged. Should we judge those who – otherwise did such a terrific job standing up to Hitler in the 1940’s – by our own modern standards? They had different standards in the 40’s, just as those in modern Dubai have different standards to our own current Western morals.
May be it is fairer to judge (if "judge" is the right word) Sheikh Mo and Co by making allowances for what other modern people of their own age/religion/moral code would be – rather than our own Western secular morals. In which case he/they are not so bad.
I am a 40something athiest. But I try (not always successfully) to look at a modern 40 year old Western Catholic by making allowances for what (I’d imagine) most other modern 40 year old Western Catholics morals would be like etc etc. I also sometimes make allowances for private (not public) minor (stress minor) racism, sexism, homophobia and gingerphobia in those over 60; because of how they’ve been brought up.
Value Is Everythingmay I conclude by saying the points you make are valid and I’ve enjoyed debating them with you.
Ditto!!!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.