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Personally think this is a big mistake and one that could come back to haunt them (afterall look at what happened to the promise of great 4 yr old careers for Almanzor and Jack Hobbs) – my own feeling is Cracksman was the one horse that could beat an on form Enable and it wouldn’t surprise me if that is the reason they don’t want him in the field.
Don’t for one minute believe the only Dettori can ride him bs, the don’t want him to have a hard race in the Arc to spoil his 4 yr old season and other drivel that has been banded about and what do they do if Enable stays in training next year? Running him in the Champion Stakes over a trip short of his best on a course that with a short straight will not particularly suit a big long striding horse could end up being more harmful for him than the Arc.
I for one still think that Enable is a stupid price being that she has been on the go since May, the King George run was really an after thought (could catch up to her) – fillies/mares usually do well in the Autumn come Arc time but they usually are specifically prepared for the race i.e. a mid season break to keep them fresh.
Those who like to question Cracksman collateral form should also note that Enable’s G1 form is also open to plenty of scrutiny, the King George in particular – Ulysses who is clearly a 10F specialist (4 from 7 @10F compared to 1 from 4 @12F) should imho really be running in the Champion Stakes, Idaho was beaten by a slightly smaller margin in an average Grade 1 in the US when finishing 6th of 7 runners and Highland Reel’s record show that he simply isn’t the same horse on ground slower than good.
Without question she should rightly be favourite for the Arc but even with the fillies and weight for age allowances, she doesn’t have much (if any) in hand of her rivals, throw in a potentially bad draw, the likelyhood of team tactics from Ballydoyle (you know they will have some sort of plan), her penchant for running with the choke out for the first couple of furlongs, ground potentially much softer than she has ever faced and this race will be the toughest assignment of her career and her price in no ways reflects that.
I said after this year’s Derby that I thought it was a poor renewal. Plenty people disagreed, which is fair enough.
I reckon they gave Cracksman a go at the Irish Derby and in defeat they decided to take a step back with him and look to next year. They have run him twice at odds on and seem to want to give him experience but in soft races, where he has a low risk of losing and can win easily.
It is for that reason that I doubt they will run Cracksman in the Champion Stakes. He will have to face a competitive field and go against older horses. As Chivers suggested, I believe they would rather not run at all, than risk being out of the frame.
The way they have gone about it does not suggest that Cracksman is absent simply because of Enable. If that were the case they would be stupid not to leave him in as long as possible in case something happens to her. If she is truly the sole reason for him not contesting the race and she then misses the race, then why is he not in a position to step in in her absence?
I feel that they don’t believe he can win the race period.
I won’t back him for the Champion Stakes. His sole run at 10F in the Epsom Derby trial saw him need every foot of the trip to collar the tragic Permian. You would reckon that Ulysses would come there hacking all over Cracksman.
The whole affair is typical of trainer and owner. The owner didn’t have a scooby about Golden Horn staying the Derby trip and this notion of Frankie being the only jockey who can ride the horse is nonsense. Frankie hardly even manages to pick the correct mount when given the choice of two and he picked Jack Hobbs over Golden Horn in the Dante. No horse is jockey reliant to that extent. As for Gosden, one minute a horse is totally reliant on the ground and gets pulled out of a race, only to then get the go ahead on the same ground later in the season.
It would be interesting to know the truth/waffle ratio in this affair.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
I said after this year’s Derby that I thought it was a poor renewal. Plenty people disagreed, which is fair enough.
I reckon they gave Cracksman a go at the Irish Derby and in defeat they decided to take a step back with him and look to next year. They have run him twice at odds on and seem to want to give him experience but in soft races, where he has a low risk of losing and can win easily.
It is for that reason that I doubt they will run Cracksman in the Champion Stakes. He will have to face a competitive field and go against older horses. As Chivers suggested, I believe they would rather not run at all, than risk being out of the frame.
The way they have gone about it does not suggest that Cracksman is absent simply because of Enable. If that were the case they would be stupid not to leave him in as long as possible in case something happens to her. If she is truly the sole reason for him not contesting the race and she then misses the race, then why is he not in a position to step in in her absence?
I feel that they don’t believe he can win the race period.
I won’t back him for the Champion Stakes. His sole run at 10F in the Epsom Derby trial saw him need every foot of the trip to collar the tragic Permian. You would reckon that Ulysses would come there hacking all over Cracksman.
The whole affair is typical of trainer and owner. The owner didn’t have a scooby about Golden Horn staying the Derby trip and this notion of Frankie being the only jockey who can ride the horse is nonsense. Frankie hardly even manages to pick the correct mount when given the choice of two and he picked Jack Hobbs over Golden Horn in the Dante. No horse is jockey reliant to that extent. As for Gosden, one minute a horse is totally reliant on the ground and gets pulled out of a race, only to then get the go ahead on the same ground later in the season.
It would be interesting to know the truth/waffle ratio in this affair.
What more can you want from the derby? From the derby the irish derby winner the st leger winner, group 2 winners in france (smashing brametot) cracksmans group 2 wins, royal ascot winners, second placings in group 1s in france and germany to name a few
Have the results from this years runners not done ALOT better than the last few years by miles?
I thought the derby form has held up quite well… i havent gone back through previous years results so this might be rubbish, but it seems quite a solid bunch over all, right down the derby field theyv all done well?
Ham, something has to win these Group 1 races, no matter how poor they may be. Any 3YO group 1 is only really as good as the standard of the generation is overall.
Anthony Oppenheimer was at pains early on to say that Cracksman was no Golden Horn. Gosden echoed that but also pointed out that he might not need to be.
I already went through the official ratings to show how little there was between the top colts this year. When figures are that tight, they are either all good, or all moderate. Almost always, the latter is true.
Anyway, the horse isn’t in the Arc and the general consensus is that it’s because he can’t beat Enable. That tells its own story for me and where is the Derby runner with a good shout in this year’s Arc?
Over to you.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
With the weather forecast currently dry and sunny for most of the week, with a few showers forecast on Monday and on Friday, there’s every likelihood that the race will be ran on good ground or better. Highland Reel is currently around 26.00 on the exchanges, which is surely absolutely massive considering his second in the race last year and his comprehensive superiority over Ulysses in the POW Stakes.
With the weather forecast currently dry and sunny for most of the week, with a few showers forecast on Monday and on Friday, there’s every likelihood that the race will be ran on good ground or better. Highland Reel is currently around 26.00 on the exchanges, which is surely absolutely massive considering his second in the race last year and his comprehensive superiority over Ulysses in the POW Stakes.
Agree, ” the reeler ” is the most underrated horse in history of the turf
imoLD,
Do you really believe Idaho ran to anything like the same form at Saratoga? He’s a quirky sort, probably unsuited by going all the way to the USA.
It was soft at Ascot so how can it be “potentially much softer than she has ever faced”?
Value Is EverythingI never like to write off the form of a race too early as most the horses that run in a Derby haven’t reached their peak by June of their 3 year-old careers. That has never been more borne out than by the form of last years Derby from which you now have the likes of Ulysses, Idaho, Cloth Of Stars, Deauville and Maasaat running well at a high level.
However the evidence thus far would back up Steve’s assertion that this year’s was not up to scratch. Apart from Rekindling winning a poor Group 2 in Ireland, nothing that ran in this years Derby has threatened to win an all-age Group race. That may well change next year if Cracksman, Eminent and Capri continue to improve but all we can really say so far about this years crop is that they were the best of their own generation but fell short against their elders.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
LD,
Do you really believe Idaho ran to anything like the same form at Saratoga? He’s a quirky sort, probably unsuited by going all the way to the USA.
It was soft at Ascot so how can it be “potentially much softer than she has ever faced”?
Probably not but then that was the point I was trying to make about the form of the KG not quite being as good as it looked visually.
The official ground was listed as good to soft at Ascot and the time was 7 secs slower than standard so probably somewhere in between that and soft but I read a report that the ground at Chantilly was listed as very soft two days ago and they are due some amount of rain in the run up so it could be testing or sticky come race day and I would imagine Ballydoyle will make it a strong gallop if Capri and Order of St George turn up – not sure if a slogfest will suit her
According to Twitter account @aobrienfansite, these will be left in the Arc:
“Order Of St George, Idaho, Highland Reel, Capri, Winter, Seventh Heaven and Cliffs Of Moher. to be left in Arc”
Order Of St George, Idaho, Highland Reel, Capri, Winter, Seventh Heaven and Cliffs Of Moher. to be left in Arc
— AIDANOBRIENFANSITE (@aobrienfansite) September 24, 2017
If all seven of those turned up, you could make a case for all seven getting involved.
I hope WINTER stay at home for 1m race at Ascot madness run her has any horse won arc on 1st run at 1m4 before.
I hope WINTER stay at home for 1m race at Ascot madness run her has any horse won arc on 1st run at 1m4 before.
Winter will still probably run on Champions Day too. Last year Found and Order of St George did, and there was only two weeks between meetings. This year there are three weeks, which is more than enough time to recover.
According to Twitter account @aobrienfansite, these will be left in the Arc:
“Order Of St George, Idaho, Highland Reel, Capri, Winter, Seventh Heaven and Cliffs Of Moher. to be left in Arc”
https://twitter.com/aobrienfansite/status/911994946802077696
If all seven of those turned up, you could make a case for all seven getting involved.
Given their love of team tactics this will strike fear into many hearts
Looking at how Cloth of Stars is heading in the betting (46/1 on BFair) I’d almost think he wasn’t going to run. Maybe he’s just not fancied by the UK punters. I have a small interest at big odds. Not making a big case for him winning, though I think he’s got a chance, but I’d like a run for my money! Anyone heard anything re his being a definite starter?
I had a little nibble on Cliffs Of Moher at 33/1. There’s every chance he won’t run but I think he’s worth a crack. A close 2nd in the Derby before getting bowled over in the Eclipse and having the ground go against him at York and trouble in running at Leopardstown.
Like ginge said, if enable wasnt their, hed be running, if your on enable take this as another positive not that you need any
Should she have to be pulled out like joe said theyll be kicking themselves, but she must be burning up the gallops at home for such an early decision
I agree it’s all to do with Enable but I don’t take Cracksman not running as a bigger advantage to her than any other runner in the race.
Even if Cracksman was second in the Arc he would win more money than winning The Champion and finishing second is no disgrace and you could even win.As has been said the owner is clueless, he didn’t even have Golden Horn entered in the Derby and is clearly dependent on Gosden making the decisions. Think Cracksman has been withdrawn now because Gosden wants a clear run up to The Arc with no distractions, think he hates the thought of both horses running in the race and wouldn’t enjoy it one bit if they did.
Looking at how Cloth of Stars is heading in the betting (46/1 on BFair) I’d almost think he wasn’t going to run. Maybe he’s just not fancied by the UK punters. I have a small interest at big odds. Not making a big case for him winning, though I think he’s got a chance, but I’d like a run for my money! Anyone heard anything re his being a definite starter?
Trainer Andre Fabre said on Monday: “I was happy considering he hadn’t run since May and the ground was against him. The Arc is the plan.”
I would snap that price up if you like it!
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