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You have a point, they have raised the game – I just hope with time that enough people can keepup with them financially!
As to books, I can’t think of a single name of one that I’ve read! For up-to-date bloodstock analysis I’ve always used Pacemaker magazine (not sure if their level of quality will continue as they’ve just been taken over by Dunwoody Sports Marketing and have a new editor – time will tell of course!), surfed the net, http://www.bloodhorse.com are good on the breeding side, and of course the Racing Post’s bloodstock writers Tony Morris and Rachel Pagones (I think that’s the right name!) are very good at their job.
Hope that helps! Sal’ll doubtless be able to point you and me both in the direction of good books on the subject!
I’d also like to ask, John, regarding your initial statement that "they have a right to be successful at their business" (which I don’t deny), I presume you’ve read Sal’s thoughts and you have to admit that they are comprehensive and pretty solid.
Whilst it is all very well to be breeding mostly from staple bloodlines and making a success of it, do you think that the after effects of very powerful breeding operations doing that, that we will see in twenty or thirty years, will be worth it?
I think in terms of the long term big picture, people may have to look back and realise that, whilst at the time it was good to see a well-bred Sadler’s Wells colt from Ballydoyle head the Derby ante-post market each year, the ramifications on breeding will not be so enjoyable.
And with that much money at one end of the market, how can smaller breeders be expected to continue breeding other bloodlines to keep up the equilibrium, only to sell at a loss because their horses aren’t fashionably bred enoguh to warrant bids from…yep…you’ve guessed it, those with the money. Coolmore and Godolphin.
I do agree with you Sal that Godolphin are braver with their choice of stallions, and all I can say is thank God for that.
Aidan – you may think you have proved your point but I still stand by what I say.
My actual words were "wouldn’t get the St Leger trip in a horsebox eight times out of ten" – admittedly this statistic might have been changed if more of the horses in question either stayed in training or actually raced over that trip to prove me wrong.
I enjoy the variety of trips and tests of British racing and I don’t think that the influx of Rock of Gibraltars, Hawk Wings et al will benefit such races in the public eye.
Group One staying races will, at this rate, be either scrapped completely (the St Leger is already dismissed as  Triple Crown race by the BHB and co) or just be the only way for smaller owners to get a win or place in a Group One.
I’m not saying your arguments are not without merit because they are and if that’s your opinion then great! carry on!. However, I have my opinion and I am not going to change my mind no matter how many posts are put on here in a different frame of mind. It is not about "proving" anything.
You believe what you want, and I’ll believe what I do.
Also – and I’m not saying this to stir an argument or belittle what you’re saying – I feel that a few of my comments have been taken out of the context in which they were meant.
My real bugbear with domineering teams in racing is that I like variety – variety of races, horses, breeding and people. I can’t see how that can possibly be a bad thing.
I was not suggesting that they were all in league with the devil, the scourge of the earth or anything of the like! :laugh:
(Edited by Zoz at 2:16 pm on May 7, 2003)
OK maybe I said it wrong about Montoya.
In his first season though the press all reported that the other drivers were at odds with his attitude, and weren’t ready to put up with it, and I did think he was impulsive as you say, at least.
He’s a lot better now, but Alonso has a much better and indeed safer mentality I feel at the same stage in his career.
My ex-boss summed it up when I asked his opinions on Montoya and he shot back "arrogant little sod" – a year ago, well I’ll admit he’s not so bad but in his first season I’d agree :biggrin:
Girl has a point.
Two years ago, it was Ferrari Mclaren, the rest may as well have stayed in a pub. If the points hadn’t gone to eighth then they would have.
This year formula one has williams and renault to think about, and even jordan has had a win.
I think this racing season will have more teams just like F1, and how is that POSSIBLY a bad thing?
Or do you like Ferrrari/McLaren monopolies?
Ferrari will win the championships, because they’re the best. The best competitor will win.
Fundamentally my initial reply to this post was that I think there is no loser when there is more than two big teams playing this sport. It can only benefit the public, the people in question, the breeding industry, the public perception of flat racing. Over breeding, inbreeding, et al is all another argument to what I was first trying to say.
So what’s the problem with more than two teams?
(Edited by Zoz at 10:41 pm on May 4, 2003)
Further to that yes I do enjoy great horses racing each other ie Galileo vs Fantastic Light. I’m all for the breeding of top quality horses, of course!
As for SP joining Godolphin, I doubt it although I could be wrong – the Niarchos family will surely want to breed from her.
Would you not like to see less of the "that horse is better than ours, let’s buy it" mentality, or the "that’s a flashy American speed horse, we’ll take that" approach?
This isn’t a completely anti-Godolphin/Coolmore rant. I would just like to see more people challenging for a race. I would like to see more than just blue-silked horses in the ante-post markets.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and personally I would like to see more contenders for the flat. Nicky Henderson and Martin Pipe I think pale in comparison in terms of big races.
Sorry John but I am allowed an opinion. The Coolmore attitude to turning a sport into a business has been overpowering before, and owners breeders are, ask Henry Cecil, starting to show thin on the ground.
You have to admit that Cheveley Park and the Niarchos team have been putting in less of a show than they used to over past years.
PERSONALLY, I think that it’s great that they are now fielding decent horses.
Godolphin, I have always said, should be given a sound slap on the back for keeping older improving horses in training. Hopefully if Ballydoyle maintain their new impetus in this direction then we’ll be on to something.
What are your thoughts towards the countless Storm Cats, Danehills and Sadlers Wells that we see running these days? How about your thoughts on the threat of overbreeding?
The fact remains that variety really is the spice of life, and I enjoy having more than two big "teams" in the sport.
Alonso was just one of the quiet youngsters for the last season or two but the Renault takeover of Benetton has really given him a chance and he’s been SO impressive.
Never saw it coming at the beginning of the season, but he’s a seriously talented bloke.
Shame his team mate hasn’t had the best of luck, but Alonso (as highlighted by the ITV commentators today) can only get better when he gets more confident. That’s quite a refreshing approach as opposed to Montoya’s debut year when basically came to the track, got in a car and proceeded to get in everyone’s way :laugh:
Really interesting season so far, I was a bit daunted by the drastic changes but it really is paying off.
Oh, and can I add to that, seeing the same people saying the same things in the winners enclosure of big races just bores the hell out of me.
Sorry, it just does. :biggrin:
Right, you want clarified, here you go.
I did not mean that at all, I merely meant that, with Ballydoyle’s team not at its all powerful best that it was two seasons ago, hopefully we’ll have a more level playing field. Other people will have a chance.
I do not begrudge them doing well at their business and I don’t begrudge them winning, I just fear that the Ballydoyle/Godolphin powerhouses will end up with the most valuable horses, encourage speed horses and – as many bloodstock and breeding studies will show you – proceed to use these horses to overbreed carbon copies of horses that eight times out of ten wouldn’t get the St leger trip in a horsebox.
This sport is all about, after all, people owning a horse and competing against each other. I’m all for enterprising business sense but not at the expense of competitive, open racing.
I went to visit a friend the other day and was talking to her dad about his thoughts on racing.
He said that he much preferred NH because of the people – he’s one of many who I’ve heard say that the monopoly of top races is a VERY bad thing.
I don’t like to wish ill for anyone as it’s just not sporting, whilst they may p**s<br> me off a bit I don’t object to them winning unless they truly are scum, but I can’t help but feel relieved that Ballydoyle’s three year olds seem mediocre.
Two seasons ago would you have foreseen there being Where or When, Soviety Song, Russian Rhythm, Six Perfections, Domedriver, Intercontinetal, Bollin Eric, Refuse to Bend, Continent and those in between such as Kyllachy and Gossamer, not to mention others, who can put up a fight in the top races? I didn’t, I regret to say that I really thought this "Premier League" trend would continue whilst everyone else was Div 1 or 2 in comparison.
If it had gone the other way and we were still subjected to a boring flood of blue-silked, blue-blooded horses winning everything worth having, I probably wouldn’t have bothered even watching the Guineas, but thankfully it looks like the smaller owner or breeder hasn’t kicked the bucket just yet.
(Edited by Zoz at 5:42 pm on May 4, 2003)
I utterly agree. Far too much inbreeding and tipping line pal-ery.
Of course, I only say that because I want their jobs. Now.
I could do it better, honest!!!
F***ING BLOODY PEOPLE!!!
God it makes you so furious doesn’t it. I for one would be very VERY interested to trace a few more of the Ramsden horses from the past and see where they ended up – not that I’m trying to insinuate anything. Course not. Why would anyone who has a reputation for exploiting racehorses for gambling purposes only ever be under suspicion for …oh, say…not giving a flying f*** about the horses?
Implying? Moi? Never.
Christ that was fast…fantastic replies, thanks a million
I am so going to that pub with my new car one day, I’ll bring Zome and your profits will go sky high.
For some reason a name that really gets on my nerves is Ra Ra Raspustin
Dont know why, sure its a nice horse, just irritates me.
FROM THE RP SITE!!!!!!!
<br> Amelia, leased to the 20-strong https://www.theracingforum.co.uk by trainer John Cullinan for the year, notched her first win for her enthusiastic bunch of leasees when taking the six-furlong fillies’ handicap under Matthew Henry. <br>   <br>  A spokesman for the website group, said: “John’s a brilliant trainer and it’s a great thrill to see Amelia win for us. Our website is an on-line forum for racing enthusiasts, and as you can imagine we’ve been very busy recently with all the mail generated by the Kenyon programme on TV.â€ÂÂ
I’m really chuffed for you lot, I wanted to be in the syndicate but being a poor student put the stop to that, however Amelia has been "my" horse through association all season and I’m really glad she won for you. I was screaming in the living room when I saw she had won, so it wasn’t just you lot Kathy!
May it be the first of many and enjoy the highs – next time you arrange a syndicate count me in even if I have to rob little old ladies to do so :laugh:
