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Clivex
It may be that the Ballydoyle team believe that GW is a phenomenally talented colt, and they ran him as although they new he would be less effective on the ground, that he would ‘get away with it’ in that company.
Fair enough Aidan.
I’m sure you’re looking forward to see GW take on the older horses on fast ground, as am I.
Do you think he will handle ‘normal’ soft ground though? I seem to recall he was pulled out of the Dewhurst because of soft ground. Do you think he’d be equally effective on ‘normal’ soft ground as he is on fast ground?
Quote: from Aidan on 3:09 pm on May 31, 2006[br]Probably one of the worst, over used lines ever in racing…Obviously the horse goes on the ground, just absolutely no where near as effective. So George Washington is not a "class horse"?<br>
Aidan,
I replied on a thread after GW’s 2000 Guineas win that although he produced a visually impressive performance, he could not be called a great horse as he hadn’t won an all aged group one at that current time.
He has still yet to do so, and it will be interesting to see what will acheive in such races. I am not denying that the horse has ‘class’, I am just saying that all he’s done at the moment is beat horses of his own age.
BTW two of the top older milers (Soviet Song and Proclamation) have both attained similar figures on both fast and soft ground over a mile.  I am very much looking forward  to all three horses getting it on over a mile later in the season (possibly in the Sussex Stakes).
(Edited by Soviet Song at 5:08 pm on May 31, 2006)<br>
(Edited by Soviet Song at 5:12 pm on May 31, 2006)
Quote: from Aidan on 12:56 pm on May 31, 2006[br]
it MAY just be that GW ISNT quite the horse he seemed after his ‘Guineas romp’.
Except he thumped the Irish 2000 Guineas winner last time and struggled to beat the likes of Decado which would not see which way he went on good fast ground.
It is blatently obvious the horse ran miles (11lbs accounding to the RP) below his Guineas form. The form not only tells you that, but that fact he was off the bit so early just confirms it.
Like I said Aidan, GW may be the real deal, but he has yet to prove that against older horses on the track.
If he does, then good for him.
BTW I don’t buy into all the excuses about not going on soft ground etc, as CLASS horses go on ANY ground.
The commercial aspects of George Washington’s stud career may well take prescidence over his future racing career.
As yet, he has only taken on 3 year olds over a mile, and after the St James’ Palace Stakes at Royal Ascot, he will have to take on the older horses if he sticks to a mile (indeed he might miss this engagement due to his lameness).  Even if he drops down in distance to 6F (ie The July Cup as many have suggested on a variety of forums), he will still have to take on older horses.
Although many have lauded this horse after his visually impressive 2000 Guineas performance, his defeat in the Irish version raises questions over his apparent ‘greatness’.  Whilst this performance has been dismissed by various sources as being a result of many factors (poor ride, slow pace, desperate ground, possible injury during the race), it MAY just be that GW ISNT quite the horse he seemed after his ‘Guineas romp’.
The fact is that it is highly likely that GW will have to race against older horses from now on (assuming he doesn’t make his Ascot engagement), which of course will be the acid test of his apparent ‘greatness’.  It may be that those shrewd men that own him decide to retire the horse to stud on the back of an excellent 2yo career, an apparent romp in the 2000 Guineas as a 3yo, whilst still being able to explain a narrow defeat in the Irish Guineas.
Further racing for GW against older horses MAY well demonstrate his greatness, but further defeats may damage his pretty exemplary record up to now.  If you owned him, would you not be tempted to retire him to stud and protect his breeding career on the back of a near perfect 2 and 3yo career?
Or would you take the risk and keep him going against older horses which, over a mile at least, would provide him with a very stern test in the future?
I was very impressed with GW today, I don’t think you could fail to be to be honest.
However, I’d like to see him race against older horses before people start to laud him as a great.
Remember a couple of seasons ago we had a superstar filly in Attraction who drubbed all the 3yo fillies out of sight in 3 G1 mile races, then the first time she took on an older mare, she herself was exposed as being less than ‘the second coming’.
Time will tell if GW is ‘great’, but he has to do a lot more ie win all-aged group 1 races, before he can be said to be great in my book.
Quote: from Shadow Leader on 4:50 pm on April 25, 2006[br]You misunderstand me – I have not been a member of ERC, just worked closely with them.
However I know that for a lot of the organised mornings and open days (other than to Clive Cox’s) there are charges, or at least there used to be.
Slight back-track there SL?
Quote: from Shadow Leader on 5:52 pm on April 23, 2006[br]Fantasies, Soviet Song?  I don’t think so – and I know a lot about how Elite is run, I can assure you.  Most visits you have to pay for, ie for the morning group stable visits and stuff that aren’t to Clive Cox’s.
If you like it then fine – but I am firmly of the opinion that Elite racing is a complete waste of money and that ERC are rip-off merchants.
By the way, I didn’t say anywhere that they advise you to back all their horses – I said that if you want to know whether to back one or not you have to ring one of the many hotlines they have – like you have to for most things (ie going on waiting lists for passes to the races, stable visits etc).
<br>Tellme then SL, when did you have to pay for a stable visit?
Quote: from Aragorn on 9:35 am on April 19, 2006[br]If you want to sing their praises why don’t you do on their website… This is getting boring
I’m not singing their praises, merely pointing out the innacuracies of another poster.
You don’t have to read what I have to say, if you don’t want to.
Quote: from Seven Towers on 6:32 pm on April 18, 2006[br]Correct me if I am wrong SS but I have a feeling, a hunch if you will, that you might be a fan of the Elite Racing Club operation…
ST, I have been a member of ERC for many years, and have enjoyed myself greatly over that time.
I’ve made a few quid backing their horses, and had the thrill of seing a club horse run in a classic, win 5 group ones, and see plenty of other good quality performances under both codes.
My level of ownership is not that of a Tabor, Magnier or McManus, or even that of you good folk in the Tajjree partnership, but I enjoy it, so good for me, eh?
my last post in connection with ERC was to merely point out the REALITIES of ERC membership, not the fantasy that Shadow Leader was describing?
Want to know if Penzance is fancied for tomorrow at Cheltenham? Well actually……
Quote: from Shadow Leader on 7:24 pm on Mar. 30, 2006[br]I really wouldn’t bother, Jackane.  All membership entails is receiving a small magazine once a week which is full of self-congratulatory articles and letters from members singing Elite’s praise.  The notes you get on each horse wouldn’t be any more information than is in the public domain and if you want to get information on whether a club runner is fancied you have to ring their hotline to listen to the recorded message.  Ditto if you want anything else or any more info than is in the booklet.  If you want to go to the races you have to telephone yet another ‘hotline’ and go on a waiting list; trainer/stable visits ditto and you have to pay for each one.  I know quite a bit about Elite having had close association with them a few years ago and I would say that their ‘membership’ just isn’t worth it.  I find it especially misleading that they market it as racehorse ownership – it’s not.  You may own one hair in one of the horse’s tails but that is about it.
(Edited by Shadow Leader at 9:25 pm on Mar. 30, 2006)<br>
Just to put Shadow Leader straight
You do get a newsletter (50 per year) which is glossy and of very good quality. The majority of the letters pages do praise the club (probably because we have generally done pretty well for the last couple of seasons ie in the top ten owners over jumps and on the flat last season), but some do criticise horses/trainers management of the club.
As for the info about the horses, some trainers are more forthcoming than others. As for the betting information, well I prefer to make my own mind up. It is NOT true that you are advised to back very horse that runs.
Obviously, with 18000 members, there are logistical complications with membership. You do have to apply for a paddock place to see horses run. If you want to be in the paddock to see Soviet Song then you’ve got little chance. On the other hand, I was in the paddock to see Oceans Apart win at Windsor last year.
You DON’T pay for stable visits (you are asked to contribute if you are bringing non-member guests) unless of course there is a lunch afterwards (sometimes optional, sometimes not). There are limits to the numbers which can be accomodated at each visit, but there often more than one visit to a stable per year. For example, there are 3 visits a year to Pegasus Stables to see JR Fanshawe and his club horses.
So yes, you won’t get the same involvement with Elite, as if you were the member of a smaller syndicate like the Tajjree syndicate. James fanshawe doesn’t want 18000 phone calls per week asking him about Soviet Song, does he?
But you do get 20 horses and a breeding programme, and a fixed financial commitment-I guess it’s what you want.
Good luck with Tajjree. Have a great season with him.
Thanks for your very full and interesting answers Lydia.
I might even forgive you for saying that Divine Proportions was better than Soviet Song!:biggrin:
Quote: from jackane24 on 1:02 pm on Feb. 8, 2006[br]Nah, my greek matey would let me borrow it on saturday mornings after he had done his studying on friday evenings!!!
Soviet Song was not a colt!!! She was a year older, and a year stronger. Had attraction been 4 and soviet song 5, i think attraction would have won.
Jackane, Soviet Song beat Attraction fair and square twice on fast ground (Attractions preferred surface), giving her weight for age (9lbs I think).
How could Attraction possibly reverse the form as a 4yo when she would be 9lbs worse off?
No chance.
Quote: from thedarkknight on 6:55 pm on Feb. 7, 2006[br]I think the 2003 1000 Guineas was the best fillies Classic I  can remember (It was probably one of the best classics full stop actually)….
BTW – do you think there is any chance Fanshawe will have SS 100% fit for the Lockinge ? He always seems to leave a bit to work on… <br>
TDK, tha aim is either the Lockinge or the Ridgewood Pearl stakes at the Curragh a week later.
Will she be 100% fit and ready to win FTO? In short, I don’t know. It depends on how long her campaign is going to be this year.
Like I said TDK, would have been nice to see them meet when both were 100% fit and well.
One thing we may well agree on. The 2003 1000 guineas was the strongest renewal we have seen for many years, given the subsequent record of the first 4 home (and a couple of the others behind weren’t the worst either)
Quote: from thedarkknight on 11:04 am on Feb. 7, 2006[br]"It is a widely recognised fact that SS was never ‘right’ in her 3yo season after the stable came down with flu whilst she was being prepared for the guineas, hence her defeats by Russian Rhythm, a very fine filly indeed. "
Widely recognised by Elite Racing Club members perhaps.
Sorry – much as I like Soviet Song, I can’t entertain her as being better than Russian Rhythm.<br>
<br>Just look at the OR’s mate-not opinion-FACT.
Perhaps as a member of ERC, I might just know a little more about the health of our horses than you do.
You don’t think it’s a great training performance? Fine.
