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@Cork_All_Star Could you name some more outstanding Derby rides before 1970?Gordon Richards on Pinza ,Toomy Weston on Hyperion?
What about Geoff Lewis on Mill Reef in 1971 ?Or Walter Swinburn on Shahrastani in 1986?
@Tonge Was not Greville equally brilliant on Fair Salina bad Shirley Heights in 1978 as on Star Appeal in 1975?
I agree Lester astride Royal Academy in 1995 was riding skill at its ultimate height.However it was in America so I evaded it.Any view on my choices and rankings?
@wordfromthewise Thanks a lot for pointing this out.Accidentally I printed King George instead of Derby and have made the corrrection.I feel Lester’s ride in the 1977 Derby was some way ahead of that in the King George.
What do you feel about my selections and ranking?any additions criticisms?
Generous was truly,one of British flat racing’s all-time great racehorses whose exploits in 1991 are unforgettable.His 7 length King George 6h and Queen Elizabeth Diamond stakes win in 1991 was one of the most spectacular wins in a group 1 middle distance race where he cruised like a railway train beating the likes of Star of Gdansk.Sadly he was past his prime during the Arc.Had he won the 1991 Arc he would have been hailed in the same breadth as Mill Reef or Nijinsky.To me the best British flat racehorse of the 1990’s and just a shade below Mill Reef or Dancing Brave.His memories will live in our hearts forever.
Sad that Japan were denied their first Arc winner in Orfevre,who came within the skin of his teeth from acheiving victory.In the straight he accelerated like a rocket taking off and the race seemed over at the furlong pole.Sadly the colt’s stamina was sapped coming from so far behind and Oliver Peslier’s great tactical experience and judgement came in handy in taking his mount Solemia home in the last few strides.Ultimately this is what the sport of horse-racing is all about.
I really hope Orfevre stays in training to win the Arc next year.He needs a suitable pacemaker and I feel in this race he ran too far off the pace,having been made to cover too much ground.With a suitable draw he would almost certainly have won.
Had Nathaniel and Danedream participated it may have been one of the bets Arc’s of all time.
Himself stated that Nijinsky would have been rated the best of them all had he won the 1970 Arc.
It is debatable where Nijinsky ranked amongst the pantheon of great racehorses.Personally I feel Timeform hardly did him justice when awarding an immortal like him 138 and I agree with the rectification made by the Racing Post team who adjusted it to 140 and rated him above Shergar,Vaguely Noble and Dancing Brave in the Rankings.(you may have rad the book by Tony Morris and John Randall on the champions of the last Century).Morally, but for facing a bout of ringworm Nijinky would surely won the Arc in addition to the Triple Crown and Irish Derby.
To me in terms of statistics Nijinsky was the greatest of all but his merely winning the Arc in addition to the triple crown,King George and Irish Derby would not necessarily make him morally the greatest.Let us imagine Nijinsky winning the Arc ,beating Sassasfras by half a length or a neck.That was surely was not a performance equal to that of the great Sea Bird 11,Dancing Brave, Mill Reef or Ribot at their best.Sea Bird was awarded the 145 rating because of the great opponents he vanquished by such a big margins like Reliance,Diatome,Tom Rolfe ,Meadow Court Etc.Blakeney,the 1969 Epsom Derby winner had the lowest timeform rating of any post-war Derby winner of 126 in 1969.Similarly Ribot got his 142 rating because he won by 6 lengths beating colts like Tanerko and Talgo,morally by around 8 lengths against the official margin of 6 lengths.To be rated on par with Sea Bird Nijinsky would have had to beat Sassafras by atleast 5-6 lengths.Morally,he may have been 5 lengths better than Blakeney in the 1970 King George but remember how effortlessly Mill Reef vanquished a better field in the 1971 King George by 6 lengths.Nijinsky’s field was not half as good as what Sea Bird faced in the Arc of 1965 or that of Dancing Brave in 1986.
Overall ,I agree that Nijinsky at his best could have been next to Sea Bird and Ribot in the middle distance category but I would not rate him above 141 .Possibly 141 was the fairest rating to him.I complement John Randal for atleast adjusting Nijinsky’s rating to 140 and ranking him only behind Sea Bird,Ribot and Mill Reef.
Himself,personally what counted in favour of Mill Reef was his brilliance in heavy and firm going which Nijinsky,Sea the Stars, Brigadier Gerard and Dancing Brave did not prove.Both the Brigadier and the Brave were hardly at their best on soft going.In the middle-distance category I feel Mill Reef won with marginally greater conviction than Nijinsky like in the 1971 Eclipse,King George and Arc.I have never seen a colt with such a smooth action reminding you of a Roll’s Royce car.Several racing experts like John Oaksey,Graham Rock,John Randalletc rated Mill Reef as the best post-war middle distance champion.Remember the authority with which he demolished talented colts like Caro ,the best of the older horses in Europe and a great colt in it’s own right.(rating of 133)
At his best to me if you account for strength of opposition and margin of superiority Nijinsky did not eclipse Sea Bird or Ribot at their best and may have bettered Mill Reef or Dancing Brave only marginally.
Himself
I totally support the comment of Ginger Tipster.This debate is of immense significance.It is debatable whether Nijinsky was the best amongst the pantheon of great racehorses.Personally I feel Timeform hardly did him justice when awarding an immortal like him 138 and I agree with the rectification made by the Racing Post team who adjusted it to 140 and rated him above Shergar,Vaguely Noble and Dancing Brave in the Rankings.(you may have rad the book by Tony Morris and John Randall on the champions of the last Century).
In a book ‘ Timeform Racehorses of the Century"infact they confirm that they did not reduce Nijinsky’s timeform rating because he lost the Arc and considered his wins in the Guineas, Epsom Derby,King George ,StLeger etc.Let us imagine Nijinsky winning the Arc ,beating Sassasfras by half a length or a neck..That was surely was not a performance equal to that of the great Sea Bird 11,Dancing Brave, Mill Reef or Ribot at their best.Sea Bird was awarded the 145 rating because of the great opponents he vanquished by such a big margins like Reliance,Diatome,Tom Rolfe ,Meadow Court Etc.Blakeney,the 1969 Epsom Derby winner had the lowest timeform rating of any post-war Derby winner of 126 in 1969.Similarly Ribot got his 142 rating because he won by 6 lengths beating colts like Tanerko and Talgo,morally by around 8 lengths against the official margin of 6 lengths.Infact Sassafras ‘s rating was lifted to 135 because of his performance in the 1970 Arc,3 lbs below Nijinsky.This proves that Timeform felt that Nijinsky at his best was atleast a length ahead of Sassafras.To be rated on par with Sea Bird Nijinsky would have had to beat Sassafras by atleast 5-6 lengths.
To me in terms of statistics Nijinsky was the greatest of all but his merely winning the Arc in addition to the triple crown,King George and Irish Derby would not necessarily make him morally the greatest.Morally,he may have been 5 lengths better than Blakeney in the 1970 King George but remember how effortlessly Mill Reef vanquished a better field in the 1971 King George by 6 lengths.Nijinsky’s field was not half as good as what sea Bird faced in the Arc of 1965 or that of Dancing Brave in 1986.
Overall ,I agree that Nijinsky at his best could have been next to Sea Bird and Ribot in the middle distance category but I would not rate him above 141 .Possibly 141 was the fairest rating to him.I complement John Randal for atleast adjusting Nijinsky’s rating to 140 and ranking him only behind Sea Bird,Ribot and Mill Reef.
I am happy with Ginger Tipster for confirming the basis of evaluation as it would be ridiculuos that Nijinsky came down from 145 to 138 because of his last 2 races.At his best to me if you account for strength of opposition and margin of superiority Nijinsky did not eclipse sea Bird or Ribot at their best and may have bettered Mill Reef or Dancing Brave only marginally.Timform’s ratings are made principally on the basis of the nature of opposition and superiority level rather than mere race record statistics.
Himself.
I agree with your evaluation which does justice to all the superstars placing them all in the correct light.However have you not forgotten Shergar?In 1981 he trounced his opposition in the Epsom Derby like no horse before and even eclipsed Sea Bird’s 1965 win.He cruised on the bit to win by 10 lengths which would well have been 15 had the rider not eased him.Many believe on the day of the Epsom Derby he was the best horse they had seen.I would bracket Shergar with the likes of Sea Bird,Mill Reef and Nijinsky.Surprised his name was not mentioned in the discussion.Ofcourse he did not face the same level of opposition as Sea Bird or Dancing Brave and did not beat older horses or mantain his form throughout the season like Mill Reef or Nijinsky.However no flat racehorse displayed as much superiority over his rivals as a 3 year old.
Himself.
I agree with your evaluation which does justice to all the superstars placing them all in the correct light.However have you not forgotten Shergar?In 1981 he trounced his opposition in the Epsom Derby like no horse before and even eclipsed Sea Bird’s 1965 win.He cruised on the bit to win by 10 lengths which would well have been 15 had the rider not eased him.Many believe on the day of the Epsom Derby he was the best horse they had seen.I would bracket Shergar with the likes of Sea Bird,Mill Reef and Nijinsky.Surprised his name was not mentioned in the discussion.Ofcourse he did not face the same level of opposition as Sea Bird or Dancing Brave and did not beat older horses or mantain his form throughout the season like Mill Reef or Nijinsky.However no flat racehorse displayed as much superiority over his rivals as a 3 year old.
Himself.
I agree with your evaluation which does justice to all the superstars placing them all in the correct light.However have you not forgotten Shergar?In 1981 he trounced his opposition in the Epsom Derby like no horse before and even eclipsed Sea Bird’s 1965 win.He cruised on the bit to win by 10 lengths which would well have been 15 had the rider not eased him.Many believe on the day of the Epsom Derby he was the best horse they had seen.I would bracket Shergar with the likes of Sea Bird,Mill Reef and Nijinsky.Surprised his name was not mentioned in the discussion.Ofcourse he did not face the same level of opposition as Sea Bird or Dancing Brave and did not beat older horses or mantain his form throughout the season like Mill Reef or Nijinsky.However no flat racehorse displayed as much superiority over his rivals as a 3 year old.
I would never question Dancing Brave’s place amongst the pantheon of great racehorses.Arguably he could have been the best after Sea Bird,in the middle -distance category.No horse ever equalled Dancing Brave’s acceleration in the last furlong in the 1985 Arc,where he vanquished the best field since Sea Bird did in 1965.The likes of Bering,Tryptich,Sharastani,Shardari etc were all overpowered.We were reminded of a bullet being shot out of a gun and he made the rest of the field look like a bunch of daisies.He also ran the fasted ever last 2 fulongs and furlong in the Epsom Derby of 1986 when he went down to Sharastani because of wrong riding tactics by Greville Starkey.Above all he was champion over a mile in the 2000 Guineas when he vaquished Green Desert with the speed of a sprinter.
Where Dancing Brave lagged was his inability to cope on soft ground like Mill Reef and arguably his inability in a distance over 12 furlongs.Mill Reef and Nijinsky stayed better.However on the day of the Arc he may have well been the best after Sea Bird and Ribot.I don’t think Sea the Stars or Mill Reef revealed the same acceleration in their Arc wins as Dancing Brave who simply flashed like a comet.
The best arc victories to me were in order of merit those of sea Bird,Dancing Brave,Ribot,Peintre Celebre,Vaguely Noble,Sea the Stars and Mill Reef.
True greatness of flat racehorses should asses the distances the horse has vanquished the opposition,the acceleration revealed,the nature of opposition,ability to adapt to different distances,consistency and temperament.Most of the all-time great race-horses came in the middle distance category who proved themselves at their best principally over ten furlongs to a mile and a half like Ribot,Sea Bird,Mill Reef,Nijinsky,Shergar,Dancing Brave,Vaguely Noble or Dahlia.Brigadier Gerard almost matched Sea Bird’s superiority over the distance of a mile and also won over ten furlongs and a mile and a half .However over the 12 furlong distance I don’t envisage him beating Mill Reef or Sea Bird.
In terms of pure race record Nijinsky tops the list with his outstanding wins in the triple crown legs plus the Irish Derby and King George and he certainly would have added the Arc ,but for his facing a bout of ringworm.Sea the stars(guineas,Derby,Eclipse,Irish Champion ,Judamonte International and Arc) is just nosed out in that respect in 2nd place,with Mill Reef(derby,eclipse,King George and Arc) and Brigadier Gerard sharing 3rd place,and Dancing Brave in 5th place.
However what made Sea Bird the outstanding champion was the superiority he displayed over the best of opposition in the 1965 Arc.The best middle distance performance after Sea Bird’s 1965 Arc win was Dancing Brave’s 1986 superlative Arc victory coming from behind.In terms of versatility Ribot and Mill Reef were the ultimate champions winning on both firm and heavy going .Sadly we hardly saw enough of Vaguely Noble who could have proved himself in the Sea Bird class as he showed when beating Sir Ivor in the 1968 Arc by 3 lengths.
The most underestimated champions to me by Timeform were Sir Ivor,Golden Fleece,Zafonic and Dahlia.There has never been a more versatile racemare than Dahlia while Golden Fleece and Sir Ivor were rated by Vincent O’Brien as being in the Sea Bird class.Golden Fleece was rated by many experts to have matched Nijinsky in ability.Zafonic was arguably the best miler after Brigadier Gerard and Frankel.I alos feel Peintre Celebre was well above the mark of 137 awarded by Timeform.His Arc win in 1997 was in the Sea Bird class.All the mentioned horses should have atleast got a 138+mark.
Overall I feel the 138 rating hardly does justice to Nijisnky,placing him below horses like Generous and below Shergar,Vaguely Noble and Dancing Brave.Nijinsky’s rating was correctly rectified by racing post to 140 which correctly ranked him above Dancing Brave ,Shergar and Vaguely Noble.
It is very hard to correctly evaluate Sea the Stars.The first stream rates him the best of all middle-distance champions(like Tony Morris),the second the best since Sea Bird ,the third in the class of the great champions and the 4th of the racing post not in the Sea Bird or Nijinsky class.(like John Randall)I feel atleast the third stream is correct classifying him with the all-time greats.He may not have revealed the superiority of Sea Bird and the acceleration of Dancing Brave but his versatality and consistency ranked him with those stars.The range of difference between the views of Tony Morris and John Randall is amazing on the evaluation of Sea the Stars.
There should be a category of ‘very good’ horses ,’great’ racehorse and ‘superhorses’.In the superhorse category we surely have Sea Bird,Ribot ,Nijinsky ,Brigadier Gerard,Mill Reef,Dancing Brave,Shergar and finally Frankel.Over 10 furlongs i place Dubai Millenium as a superhorse,the best ever over 10 furlongs.In the ‘great ‘category I would place Sir Ivor,Generous,Troy,Alleged,Daylami,Crepello,Dahlia,Vaguely Noble and Peintre Celebre.etc.140+ should be the mark of a superhorse while 138 + should be the mark of a truly great racehorse.
The most debatable exclusions in all-time great category are Nashwan and Lammtara who were statistically great but did not face outstanding opposition.However remember how highly both Dick Hern and Willie Carson rated Nashwan( the best horse he had ever ridden).
True greatness of flat racehorses should asses the distances the horse has vanquished the opposition,the acceleration revealed,the nature of opposition,ability to adapt to different distances,consistency and temperament.Most of the all-time great race-horses came in the middle distance category who proved themselves at their best principally over ten furlongs to a mile and a half like Ribot,Sea Bird,Mill Reef,Nijinsky,Shergar,Dancing Brave,Vaguely Noble or Dahlia.Brigadier Gerard almost matched Sea Bird’s superiority over the distance of a mile and also won over ten furlongs and a mile and a half .However over the 12 furlong distance I don’t envisage him beating Mill Reef or Sea Bird.
In terms of pure race record Nijinsky tops the list with his outstanding wins in the triple crown legs plus the Irish Derby and King George and he certainly would have added the Arc ,but for his facing a bout of ringworm.Sea the stars(guineas,Derby,Eclipse,Irish Champion ,Judamonte International and Arc) is just nosed out in that respect in 2nd place,with Mill Reef(derby,eclipse,King George and Arc) and Brigadier Gerard sharing 3rd place,and Dancing Brave in 5th place.
However what made Sea Bird the outstanding champion was the superiority he displayed over the best of opposition in the 1965 Arc.The best middle distance performance after Sea Bird’s 1965 Arc win was Dancing Brave’s 1986 superlative Arc victory coming from behind.In terms of versatility Ribot and Mill Reef were the ultimate champions winning on both firm and heavy going .Sadly we hardly saw enough of Vaguely Noble who could have proved himself in the Sea Bird class as he showed when beating Sir Ivor in the 1968 Arc by 3 lengths.
The most underestimated champions to me by Timeform were Sir Ivor,Golden Fleece,Zafonic and Dahlia.There has never been a more versatile racemare than Dahlia while Golden Fleece and Sir Ivor were rated by Vincent O’Brien as being in the Sea Bird class.Golden Fleece was rated by many experts to have matched Nijinsky in ability.Zafonic was arguably the best miler after Brigadier Gerard and Frankel.I alos feel Peintre Celebre was well above the mark of 137 awarded by Timeform.His Arc win in 1997 was in the Sea Bird class.
Overall I feel the 138 rating hardly does justice to Nijisnky,placing him below horses like Generous and below Shergar,Vaguely Noble and Dancing Brave.Nijinsky’s rating was correctly rectified by racing post to 140 which correctly ranked him above Dancing Brave ,Shergar and Vaguely Noble.
It is very hard to correctly evaluate Sea the Stars.The first stream rates him the best of all middle-distance champions(like Tony Morris),the second the best since Sea Bird ,the third in the class of the great champions and the 4th of the racing post not in the Sea Bird or Nijinsky class.(like John Randall)I feel atleast the third stream is correct classifying him with the all-time greats.He may not have revealed the superiority of Sea Bird and the acceleration of Dancing Brave but his versatality and consistency ranked him with those stars.The range of difference between the views of Tony Morris and John Randall is amazing on the evaluation of Sea the Stars.
There should be a category of ‘very good’ horses ,’great’ racehorse and ‘superhorses’.In the superhorse category we surely have Sea Bird,Ribot ,Nijinsky ,Brigadier Gerard,Mill Reef,Dancing Brave,Shergar and finally Frankel.Over 10 furlongs i place Dubai Millenium as a superhorse,the best ever over 10 furlongs.In the ‘great ‘category I would place Sir Ivor,Generous,Troy,Alleged,Daylami,Crepello,Dahlia,Vaguely Noble and Peintre Celebre.etc.140+ should be the mark of a superhorse while 138 + should be the mark of a truly great racehorse.
Today it will be racing history if Camelot wins the St.Leger.In one era winning the triple crown was the ultimate accolade and Nijinsky’s accomplishment in that time was phenomenal.What was remarkable was that Nijisnky also won the Irish Derby and King George and but for a bout of ringworm would have certainly won the Arc.In statistical terms he was simply the best of the champions,overshadowing even Sea the Stars.Had Sea the Stars been campaigned for the St.Leger i am almost certain it would have won the triple crown and had Mill Reef not raced in the year of Brigadier Gerard I would have backed him to achieve the historic distinction .Nashwan,too,had a great chance inspite of his being principally a 10 furlong horse.
One factor to be considered is that the St.Leger has lost it’s prestige and has virtually lost its old stature.I am almost certain that Camelot will win the Leger but that does not necessarily make him an all-time great in the Sea Bird,Frankel, or Nijinsky class.In statistical terms he would join the all-time champions but not in performance.Just examine his timeform ratings.Remember Nashwan’s superb record of race wins encompassing the Guineas ,Derby,Eclipse and King George .Inspite of Nijisnky wining the triple crown,Sea Bird,Mill Reef and Robot are ranked ahead of him.Infact in the 1971 season both Mill Reef and the Briagadier Gerard eclipsed the great Nijinsky.Overall however I mantain it is a great achievement to assert superiority from a mile to 14 furlongs,which eluded champions like Shergar,Dancing Brave and Sir Ivor.
I wish Camelot all the luck and I am almost certain he will win the triple Crown by capturing the St.Leger.After all he is more bred for this distance than Nijinsky.We will be again witnessing a major landmark by having racing’s first triple crown winner since Nijinsky 2nd.
Regarding Shergar it is a tricky question whether he was past his peak or did not stay the gruelling distance.Infact he was working out very well just before the rcae and was at the peak of his performaces in the gallops.
Sadly Nashwan ,in 1989 was not given a crack at the Leger to enable him to capture the triple Crown,nor Sea The Stars.This makes us ask the qusetion whether this race has lost the credibility it had in the days of Crepello,Sir Ivor or Nijinsky.Mill Reef was left out because it was to run in the Arc while Nijinky’s participation took the toll out of the horses and cost him the Arc.I feel Crepello,Nashwan and Sea the Stars would have all won the St.Leger and thus taken the triple Crown.
I personally saw Frankel win the Judamonte International-An experience of a lifetime.To me Frankel is the greatest miler of all time who has treated top class opposition over a mile with greater disdain than any great miler.It is a tribute to Frankel that he won with the same authority over 10 furlongs,eclipsing Brigadier Geard who was defeated in the same race 40 years ago.
Probably even Sea Bird did not display as much superiority in the middle distance category as Frankel over a mile and Frankel deserves his top rating.A horse that comes one every hundred years,who in raw ability is probably the best of all.The ultimate decider would have been Frankel been pitted in a mile and a half race like the Arc and wining with as much conviction .In that light Brigadier Gerard was more versatile.Joe Mercer rates Frankel on par and not better than the Brigadier.
