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Royal Ascot is almost upon us and we have two horses, both unbeaten multiple Group 1 winners that have so far demonstrated that they are vastly superior to their contemporaries, but can they both be regarded as greats if not what criteria should we use to measure greatness.
Some might argue that a horses’ peak level of ability should be used. Harbinger put up an absolutely stunning performance in the King George, unfortunately he didn’t get the chance to reproduce that effort, but as this was way above what he had done before does he deserve to called great based on one outstanding performance.
Some may contend that a horse must put up a series of outstanding efforts such as those produced by Black Caviar and Frankel, two horses that have proved time and again that they are truly outstanding at what they do.
Still this is not enough for some, some judges consider a great horse has be versatile and able to win top class races over a variety of distances, be it sprinters having to win over a mile or milers winning over middle distances, conversely this argument doesn’t seem to apply so much to middle distance horses having to prove themselves over shorter trips. For example people do not question the brilliant Sea Bird because he didn’t win a 2000 Guineas or Poule d’essi de Poulins and rightly so. Having said that some might crib Dayjur or Abernant because they never won over a mile yet both were truly brilliant sprinters. The same with Tudor Minstrel and indeed Frankel both way,way ahead over a mile but in the eyes of some not great because they’re milers.
Does versatility make a very,very good horse a great horse? Lets look at horses that won the 2000 Guineas and went on to win G1’s over 12F, I’ve purposely chosen that spread as the difference from 8-10 or 10-12, I think is not that great a step. Since the pattern race system was introduced this boils down to Brigadier Gerard, El Gran Senor, Dancing Brave, Nashwan, Golan, Sea The Stars and Camelot. Leaving aside Camelot as he’s still in training and the world is his oyster, lets look at what the others achieved. And did they produce truly outstanding performances at both distances.
Firstly Brigadier Gerard, unquestionably a great miler and his 2000 Guineas win can truly be called a great win from a outstanding multiple G1 winner and a champion 2 year-old. His King George was a weak renewal the second Parnell raced for 5 seasons his only G1 win was over 1M6F the 3rd Riverman never won beyond 9F. Would The Brig have turned up never mind won if Mill Reef was there. El Gran Senor, again fantastic performance in the Guineas and beating none other than Rainbow Quest in the Irish Derby, shows he had the potential to be outstanding at both distances but that Derby defeat and the fact he only raced against own generation puts a question mark on that. As a winner of the Eclipse, King George and Arc, Dancing Brave was outstanding at middle distances, his 2000 win was from sprinter Green Desert, but he won with ease and I have little doubt he would have been the champion miler of his generation. Nashwan looked terrific over middle distances in the summer and he beat a decent field in the Guineas, but he certainly wasn’t the best miler that year that was Zilzal and Old Vic was rated as good as him over 12F, so can a horse that possibly or even probably not the best of his generation over either distance be regarded as great. Golan won a weak Guineas, Tamburlaine never won another race and the 3rd never won above G3 and Galileo was a far superior 12F horse. Sea The Stars won a weak Guineas, Delegator regularly get beat in lesser company, Fame and Glory is running in Cup races he beat Cavalryman and Youmzain in the Arc again both have been comprehensively beaten on umpteen occasions by average Group class horses, again do these victories make Sea The Stars great or the best of a bad bunch. On the grounds of versatility, then of the above bunch I would say that only Dancing Brave deserves his place but I don’t think that’s a prerequisite of greatness and certainly Brigadier Gerard, at least of the others deserves to called a great.
Personally, I don’t think it matters over what trip a horse excels, as long as he/she consistently shows outstanding ability, ability far in excess of anything else can produce then that makes them great. Let’s hope Black Caviar and Frankel can reaffirm their undoubted brilliance at Royal Ascot and enshrine their names in the pantheon of the greats.
great·ness/ˈgrātnis/
Noun:
The quality of being great, distinguished, or eminent.
They both are.
The idea of "true greatness" is purely subjective and as such, is down to the individual. Given that pretty much no horse is ever unanimously lauded as a great, should a person consider any particular horse to be a great then that person is fully entitled to hold said horse in such a position.
The idea of versatility being an essential rule for greatness isn’t one that translates into other sports. Lance Armstrong wasn’t reknowned for being a sprinter nor is Mark Cavendish much of a climber. Bobby Moore wouldn’t have made much of a striker as much as Lionel Messi isn’t built to be a defender. Even in National Hunt racing, few people would begrudge Denman the title of a great despite the fact he wouldn’t have had the speed to trouble top two milers and Istabraq will always be regarded as a great even though he just wasn’t the same horse over two and a half miles.
Yes versatility is an admirable trait but the lack of it shouldn’t be allowed to detract from a horses great performances.
Talking Frankel and Black Caviar it would be interesting to know individuals opinion of the Greatest Mare and the Greatest Colt of all time.
I’d kick of with SCEPTRE
http://community.tvg.com/t5/History-and … d-p/451553
as one of the Greatest Mares
and undoubtedly HYPERION
http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Hyperion.htmlThe latter bred by Lord Derby who also bred OUIJA BOARD, yet to produce a Group winner
URBAN SEA is another Mare who could be defined as great having won the Arc and then producing a foal who achieved greatness himself SEA THE STARS.Extremely interesting and thought provoking thread.
Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...I think Ribot sometimes gets overlooked when people talk of the greats, he must have been one helluva horse.
As far as horses I’ve seen personally in Europe I suppose Frankel and Shergar are as good as any colts I’ve seen. Among the filles Bosra Sham was electrifying at her best.
Miesque would be the filly.
Sadly her feats are unlikely to be matched. She defeated the colts at the highest level at 2,3 and 4 years of age in an era abundant with top quality mile performers. As a broodmare she produced classic winners and good sires. Her female descendants are still producing exciting prospects, last week Rumpelstiltskin’s son Theatre won his maiden in impressive fashion and must be a live contender for pattern races later this season and next.
Miesque would be the filly.
Sadly her feats are unlikely to be matched. She defeated the colts at the highest level at 2,3 and 4 years of age in an era abundant with top quality mile performers. As a broodmare she produced classic winners and good sires. Her female descendants are still producing exciting prospects, last week Rumpelstiltskin’s son Theatre won his maiden in impressive fashion and must be a live contender for pattern races later this season and next.
I would argue that Dahlia’s record is more impressive.
1973 Champion 3yo Filly In England
1973 Horse Of The Year In England
1974 Champion Grass Horse (tri)
1974 Champion Older Mare In England
1974 Horse Of The Year In England
1975 Champion Older Mare In England
1973 1st Washington D. C. International H. [G1] $150,000
1974 1st Man O’ War S. [G1] (BEL) $100,000
1974 1st Canadian International S. [G2] (WO) $125,000
1976 1st Hollywood Inv. H. [G1] (HOL) $200,000
1974 3rd Washington D. C. Int’l S. [G1] (LRL) $150,000
1976 3rd Century H. [G1] (HOL) $100,000
1972 1st Prix Yacowlef (FR)
1973 1st Prix De La Grotte [G3] (FR)
1973 1st Irish Guinness Oaks [G1] (IRE)
1973 1st King George & Queen Eliz. S. [G1] (ENG)
1973 1st Prix Niel [G3] (FR)
1973 1st Prix Saint-Alary [G1] (FR)
1974 1st Grand Prix De Saint-Cloud [G1] (FR)
1974 1st King George & Queen Eliz. S. [G1] (ENG)
1974 1st Benson And Hedges Gold Cup [G1] (ENG)
1975 1st Benson And Hedges Gold Cup [G1] (ENG)
1972 2nd Prix Des Reservoirs (FR)
1973 2nd Prix De Diane [G1] (FR)
1975 2nd Grand Prix De Deauville [G2] (FR)
1973 3rd Poule D’Essai Des Pouliches [G1] (FR)
1974 3rd Coronation Cup S. [G1] (ENG)
1974 3rd Prix Du Prince D’Orange [G3] (FR)
1975 3rd Prix Du Prince D’Orange [G3] (FR)
1975 3rd King George-queen Eliz. Diamond S. [G1] (ENG)As a broodmare she produced:
Dahar – millionaire, 4-time G1 winner
Dahlia’s Dreamer – G1 winner, dam of G1 winning hurdler Racey Dreamer
Dahlia’s Image – stakes placed, granddam of Rite of Passage
Decadrachm – G1 stakes-placed
Delegant – G1 winner
Llandaff – G2 winner, champion sire in Switzerland
Miss Dahlia – dam of G2 winner Capital Plan
Rivlia – millionaire, 2-time G1 winner
Wajd – G2 winner, dam of Nedawi, Wall StreetMiesque would be the filly.
Sadly her feats are unlikely to be matched. She defeated the colts at the highest level at 2,3 and 4 years of age in an era abundant with top quality mile performers. As a broodmare she produced classic winners and good sires. Her female descendants are still producing exciting prospects, last week Rumpelstiltskin’s son Theatre won his maiden in impressive fashion and must be a live contender for pattern races later this season and next.
I would argue that Dahlia’s record is more impressive.
1973 Champion 3yo Filly In England
1973 Horse Of The Year In England
1974 Champion Grass Horse (tri)
1974 Champion Older Mare In England
1974 Horse Of The Year In England
1975 Champion Older Mare In England
1973 1st Washington D. C. International H. [G1] $150,000
1974 1st Man O’ War S. [G1] (BEL) $100,000
1974 1st Canadian International S. [G2] (WO) $125,000
1976 1st Hollywood Inv. H. [G1] (HOL) $200,000
1974 3rd Washington D. C. Int’l S. [G1] (LRL) $150,000
1976 3rd Century H. [G1] (HOL) $100,000
1972 1st Prix Yacowlef (FR)
1973 1st Prix De La Grotte [G3] (FR)
1973 1st Irish Guinness Oaks [G1] (IRE)
1973 1st King George & Queen Eliz. S. [G1] (ENG)
1973 1st Prix Niel [G3] (FR)
1973 1st Prix Saint-Alary [G1] (FR)
1974 1st Grand Prix De Saint-Cloud [G1] (FR)
1974 1st King George & Queen Eliz. S. [G1] (ENG)
1974 1st Benson And Hedges Gold Cup [G1] (ENG)
1975 1st Benson And Hedges Gold Cup [G1] (ENG)
1972 2nd Prix Des Reservoirs (FR)
1973 2nd Prix De Diane [G1] (FR)
1975 2nd Grand Prix De Deauville [G2] (FR)
1973 3rd Poule D’Essai Des Pouliches [G1] (FR)
1974 3rd Coronation Cup S. [G1] (ENG)
1974 3rd Prix Du Prince D’Orange [G3] (FR)
1975 3rd Prix Du Prince D’Orange [G3] (FR)
1975 3rd King George-queen Eliz. Diamond S. [G1] (ENG)As a broodmare she produced:
Dahar – millionaire, 4-time G1 winner
Dahlia’s Dreamer – G1 winner, dam of G1 winning hurdler Racey Dreamer
Dahlia’s Image – stakes placed, granddam of Rite of Passage
Decadrachm – G1 stakes-placed
Delegant – G1 winner
Llandaff – G2 winner, champion sire in Switzerland
Miss Dahlia – dam of G2 winner Capital Plan
Rivlia – millionaire, 2-time G1 winner
Wajd – G2 winner, dam of Nedawi, Wall StreetAlthough Allez France was not a outstanding success at stud, she was clearly a better filly/mare than Dahlia on the track. Don’t get me wrong Dahlia was absolutely top class but I do believe they met 6 times and Allez France beat her every time.
That is a stat that cannot be argued against!
I would rate Dawn Run as the greatest mares who ever set foot in Cheltenham or any other race course for that matter.
Greatness can only be measured in ability (how good a horse is).
Sea The Stars was a "Great" because he produced some performances of the highest standard. Absolutely nothing to do with winning the 2000 Guineas, which was a performance a long way below the standard of a "Great" racehorse. You can not have "greatness" reliant on the standards of rivals. Had there been a real top class miler in the field for the Guineas then Sea The Stars would not have won… And therefore in some people’s eyes not been a "Great", despite his vastly improved efforts over middle-distances. So to disqualify a horse for not being "veratile" enough is ridiculous.You can have "great versatility", but that does not make a "Great" racehorse. Camelot won’t be a true "Great" even if he goes on to win the St Leger, unless improving his performance rating significantly. He won a poor Guineas. Had he been around in many other years that performance would not have been good enough to win a Guineas. To argue that winning a Guineas, Derby and St Leger automatically makes a horse "Great", when winning those three races depended on his rivals being a poor bunch… is crazy. Otherwise, you end up with a so called "Great" with vastly inferior form to just a "good" horse from another (more taxing) year.
One of my favourite horses was Persian Punch, he had great guts and consistency over many years. But his form was not of the very top quality.
You can have great versatility, great consistency and great temperament/bravery, but to be a
true "Great"
, you must perform to a great standard.
Value Is EverythingGreatness can only be measured in ability (how good a horse is).
Sea The Stars was a "Great" because he produced some performances of the highest standard. Absolutely nothing to do with winning the 2000 Guineas, which was a performance a long way below the standard of a "Great" racehorse. You can not have "greatness" reliant on the standards of rivals. Had there been a real top class miler in the field for the Guineas then Sea The Stars would not have won… And therefore in some people’s eyes not been a "Great", despite his vastly improved efforts over middle-distances. So to disqualify a horse for not being "veratile" enough is ridiculous.You can have "great versatility", but that does not make a "Great" racehorse. Camelot won’t be a true "Great" even if he goes on to win the St Leger, unless improving his performance rating significantly. He won a poor Guineas. Had he been around in many other years that performance would not have been good enough to win a Guineas. To argue that winning a Guineas, Derby and St Leger automatically makes a horse "Great", when winning those three races depended on his rivals being a poor bunch… is crazy. Otherwise, you end up with a so called "Great" with vastly inferior form to just a "good" horse from another (more taxing) year.
One of my favourite horses was Persian Punch, he had great guts and consistency over many years. But his form was not of the very top quality.
You can have great versatility, great consistency and great temperament/bravery, but to be a
true "Great"
, you must perform to a great standard.
The 2000 Guineas is very very rarely won with a "great" performance by your logic. It is often won by a horse making seasonal debut and hopefully by a horse that will improve as their classic season progresses.
Sea the Stars beat among others Rip Van Winkle in that race who achieved a higher rating at a mile as a 3yo than Sea the Stars. While not "great", RVW was a good enough miler to suggest that Sea the Stars was capable of very good form at that distance. As he only ran at the distance once in his classic year and won, it is a false claim to say that he definitely was not a great miler due to lack of evidence as much as it is to suggest Frankel is not a great 10f horse until he attempts the distance.True greatness of flat racehorses should asses the distances the horse has vanquished the opposition,the acceleration revealed,the nature of opposition,ability to adapt to different distances,consistency and temperament.Most of the all-time great race-horses came in the middle distance category who proved themselves at their best principally over ten furlongs to a mile and a half like Ribot,Sea Bird,Mill Reef,Nijinsky,Shergar,Dancing Brave,Vaguely Noble or Dahlia.Brigadier Gerard almost matched Sea Bird’s superiority over the distance of a mile and also won over ten furlongs and a mile and a half .However over the 12 furlong distance I don’t envisage him beating Mill Reef or Sea Bird.
In terms of pure race record Nijinsky tops the list with his outstanding wins in the triple crown legs plus the Irish Derby and King George and he certainly would have added the Arc ,but for his facing a bout of ringworm.Sea the stars(guineas,Derby,Eclipse,Irish Champion ,Judamonte International and Arc) is just nosed out in that respect in 2nd place,with Mill Reef(derby,eclipse,King George and Arc) and Brigadier Gerard sharing 3rd place,and Dancing Brave in 5th place.
However what made Sea Bird the outstanding champion was the superiority he displayed over the best of opposition in the 1965 Arc.The best middle distance performance after Sea Bird’s 1965 Arc win was Dancing Brave’s 1986 superlative Arc victory coming from behind.In terms of versatility Ribot and Mill Reef were the ultimate champions winning on both firm and heavy going .Sadly we hardly saw enough of Vaguely Noble who could have proved himself in the Sea Bird class as he showed when beating Sir Ivor in the 1968 Arc by 3 lengths.
The most underestimated champions to me by Timeform were Sir Ivor,Golden Fleece,Zafonic and Dahlia.There has never been a more versatile racemare than Dahlia while Golden Fleece and Sir Ivor were rated by Vincent O’Brien as being in the Sea Bird class.Golden Fleece was rated by many experts to have matched Nijinsky in ability.Zafonic was arguably the best miler after Brigadier Gerard and Frankel.I alos feel Peintre Celebre was well above the mark of 137 awarded by Timeform.His Arc win in 1997 was in the Sea Bird class.
Overall I feel the 138 rating hardly does justice to Nijisnky,placing him below horses like Generous and below Shergar,Vaguely Noble and Dancing Brave.Nijinsky’s rating was correctly rectified by racing post to 140 which correctly ranked him above Dancing Brave ,Shergar and Vaguely Noble.
It is very hard to correctly evaluate Sea the Stars.The first stream rates him the best of all middle-distance champions(like Tony Morris),the second the best since Sea Bird ,the third in the class of the great champions and the 4th of the racing post not in the Sea Bird or Nijinsky class.(like John Randall)I feel atleast the third stream is correct classifying him with the all-time greats.He may not have revealed the superiority of Sea Bird and the acceleration of Dancing Brave but his versatality and consistency ranked him with those stars.The range of difference between the views of Tony Morris and John Randall is amazing on the evaluation of Sea the Stars.
There should be a category of ‘very good’ horses ,’great’ racehorse and ‘superhorses’.In the superhorse category we surely have Sea Bird,Ribot ,Nijinsky ,Brigadier Gerard,Mill Reef,Dancing Brave,Shergar and finally Frankel.Over 10 furlongs i place Dubai Millenium as a superhorse,the best ever over 10 furlongs.In the ‘great ‘category I would place Sir Ivor,Generous,Troy,Alleged,Daylami,Crepello,Dahlia,Vaguely Noble and Peintre Celebre.etc.140+ should be the mark of a superhorse while 138 + should be the mark of a truly great racehorse.
Maybe Frankel’s opposition hasn’t been that great or brilliant, after all in Ireland they were beat by a mare who has lost 12 times and yesterday his standing opponent who has only won a Class 2 handicap was stuffed by a sprinter. If it wasn’t for pre-arranged small fields and his pacemaker would he really still be unbeaten?
He is obviously very good but maybe just a bit over-rated, sometimes when we want our next superhero we can tend to over-rate everything they do. Let’s just give him the biggest number we can anyway.
Pre-arranged small fields, how on earth do they manage that??
The smaller fields, indicates one thing only and that is that the opposition connections realise the futility in taking him on.
Anyway what horse woulda/shoulda/coulda beaten Frankel, pacemaker or not?
By mapping out your season early on giving other connections opportunity to go down different race paths, there’s enough G1s out there to go round and no point in everyone accidentally turning up at the same one or you could find trouble in running or have an off day which could mean a lost race.
Orfevre has faced twice the field sizes Frankel has in his career, won a triple crown and more money than any horse in history and they’re not afraid to send him outside of his comfort zone and to the other side of the world to beat whatever turns up – that is true greatness/brilliance and also why Frankel isn’t going anywhere near Paris.
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