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"He dies trying to do something he was not capable of doing anymore"
How hard was he trying and when his chance was gone, was he forced, coerced to try even harder? I don’t believe he was. He would have been expected to try harder in a lower grade race at Leicester than he would at Newbury.
From his two hurdle races. Doesn’t read like a horse out of love with the game, unnecessarily forced to compete when his chance had gone.
Venn Ottery<br>steadied start, took keen hold in rear, headway 6th, shortlived effort 3 out, soon faded.
Venn Ottery, having looked as if he might be a factor when closing on the leaders three out, had run his race by the next.
"He should have been retired, whether he enjoyed his racing or not. He was an old horse…."<br> <br>Have you ever thought that the horse may actually like racing, like the training regime and all that goes with it. What has age got to do with it, it’s what goes on in their mind that matters? As long as they are physically able to do the job (whether they can be competitive is irrelevant) and the owner pays the bills, they should be allowed to remain in training and race.
Can’t disagree that he was out of his depth at this stage of his career, but retirement wasn’t the absolute conclusion.
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"He dies trying to do something he was not capable of doing anymore"
How hard was he trying and when his chance was gone, was he forced, coerced to try even harder? I don’t believe he was. He would have been expected to try harder in a lower grade race at Leicester than he would at Newbury.
From his two hurdle races. Doesn’t read like a horse out of love with the game, unnecessarily forced to compete when his chance had gone.
Venn Ottery<br>steadied start, took keen hold in rear, headway 6th, shortlived effort 3 out, soon faded.
Venn Ottery, having looked as if he might be a factor when closing on the leaders three out, had run his race by the next.
"He should have been retired, whether he enjoyed his racing or not. He was an old horse…."<br> <br>Have you ever thought that the horse may actually like racing, like the training regime and all that goes with it. What has age got to do with it, it’s what goes on in their mind that matters? As long as they are physically able to do the job (whether they can be competitive is irrelevant) and the owner pays the bills, they should be allowed to remain in training and race.
Can’t disagree that he was out of his depth at this stage of his career, but retirement wasn’t the absolute conclusion.
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To be honest toddy, I see nothing wrong in your ‘presentation’ and unlike many on these types of discussion forums, you can accept a difference of opinion from others.
I don’t think it was too strongly put at all, it’s a pity these presenters that we watch on our racing programmes don’t ‘present’ with the same passion.
I do think that there is a difference between having a private conversation and a public forum.
The people/person in question is in the public domain, putting forward a programme for us to watch and by subscription, pay for. That makes us entitled to opinion and in my view open to public debate. However, what Alice for instance, does in her private life is no business of mine or a discussion board as long as it doesn’t influence the programme content.
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Again, welcome to the forum toddy.
" But a lot of broadcasters/jockeys etc who get criticised on forums like this are doing their best and I don’t suppose people who post anonymously on this and other boards would ever have the guts to make their observations directly to their faces"
I’m all for ex-jockeys etc joining the racing presentation teams, but that shouldn’t be their only qualification. The nature of the job is presentation and customer/viewer entertainment and it isn’t a job that the majority can do.
Much of the presentation is lightweight, none more obvious than when controversy raises it’s head. I believe there are many out in the wilderness that could add to the quality of the racing production, but I get the impression that it is very much a case of ‘who you know’ rather than ability, that gets the job.
This is a subject that has been raised many times before, the same names seem to get a negative response and the same names get the positive, much of it qualified with examples. No presenter will be ideal for all viewers, but there is a level of acceptability that will cover the general audience.
If I was an honest presenter, then I would look at topics such as this and try to alter my style, always looking for improvement.
Regarding Alice in particular, I believe she has a place in the broadcast team, not as an upfront presenter, but for the casual viewer and for overall production, her bonhomie/cliquey style at the presentation fence/hurdle before the Festival races looks good on TV. It means little to the hardcore racefan, but they are not the be-all and end-all to the production.
For the record, I would be hopeless as a presenter, but when people are being paid to do a job, then a certain standard should be expected by the paying customer.
I guess it’s unacceptable for him to be put down from a racing incident, yet it would be, if the same had happened in retirement.
Does anybody know if the horse would accept retirement, he was a ‘busy’ sort?
Although racing out of his grade (and many do), was he thrashed to keep competitive?
Would he have been better off having a hard race giving weight away to younger horses around somewhere like Leicester?
Perhaps it would have been best for him from a winning perspective to be retired, but unless there is cruelty involved, what is the problem? If he had refused to race, or tried to refuse, or just show a genuine dislike of racing from tapes up, then that would be the proper and only option. In his two previous hurdle races, there wasn’t much wrong with his enthusiasm, was there?
Eccentric he may well be regarded, but there will be nobody more gutted than Oliver Carter after the events. The horse was bred to race, he had spent his life racing, so until he shows connections that he has had enough, then let him race. Perhaps he wouldn’t appreciate the options anyway.
As for Nicholls, what right does he have to pass comment on other horses? It wasn’t so long ago that he was racing horses with perhaps unacceptable frequency, or in conditions that were unsuitable, to try and win the Champion trainers title and lost a nice young horse in the process. (Forget the name).
I guess it’s unacceptable for him to be put down from a racing incident, yet it would be, if the same had happened in retirement.
Does anybody know if the horse would accept retirement, he was a ‘busy’ sort?
Although racing out of his grade (and many do), was he thrashed to keep competitive?
Would he have been better off having a hard race giving weight away to younger horses around somewhere like Leicester?
Perhaps it would have been best for him from a winning perspective to be retired, but unless there is cruelty involved, what is the problem? If he had refused to race, or tried to refuse, or just show a genuine dislike of racing from tapes up, then that would be the proper and only option. In his two previous hurdle races, there wasn’t much wrong with his enthusiasm, was there?
Eccentric he may well be regarded, but there will be nobody more gutted than Oliver Carter after the events. The horse was bred to race, he had spent his life racing, so until he shows connections that he has had enough, then let him race. Perhaps he wouldn’t appreciate the options anyway.
As for Nicholls, what right does he have to pass comment on other horses? It wasn’t so long ago that he was racing horses with perhaps unacceptable frequency, or in conditions that were unsuitable, to try and win the Champion trainers title and lost a nice young horse in the process. (Forget the name).
I saw Collier Hill win the G1 Canadian International, Arravale win the G1 EP Taylor Stakes and on the card was the G2 Neartic Stakes.
I didn’t pay a dime to get in and neither did anybody else. This is the same for any other day of the year and no car parking charges, although valet parking is $8!!!
Excellent facilities, a whole range of food and beverages and no charge for ample seating.
Like apracing, I was a dedicated Festival attendee, until I saw the light that was. Overcrowding, p**s
poor service and choice, crap conditions and disgusting washrooms even before the first race was underway……………..that’s when you finally manage to get in there. Sure it’s got the atmosphere and is the best race meeting in the world, but you’re ripped off for it, as you are with racing in general.<br>
We moved when it looked like Labour were coming into power (not the reason and not that the Tories were any better), but it was probably the best decision we ever made.
A much better life for us, but more importantly much more opportunity for our son.
The one thing we do notice is the negativity in the British people, especially now that we have been here a while.
All I hear from discussion or correspondence is how bad things are getting.
It’s not Utopia here by any stretch of the imagination, but there would be no possibility of ever considering a return to live in the UK (and we lived in a nice rural area).
Harness racing is big over here…………..not for me though. Decent prize money and a strong breeding industry.
TORONTO, June 17…Total Truth, with Ron Pierce at the controls, wore down the leaders in the closing strides to win a thrilling edition of the $1.5 million Pepsi North America Cup, Canada’s richest harness race, Saturday night at Woodbine.
Sixth for the most of the mile, Total Truth was tipped four-wide turning for home while the field chased pacesetter Jeremes Jet, who had rocketed to the front from post 10, clocking a half in :54.2, then blistering three-quarters in 1:21.2.
As Jeremes Jet, last year’s two-year-old colt champion, began to wilt late in the stretch, it was anybody’s race in the closing strides, but Total Truth, on the outside, outkicked the odds-on favourite Feelin Friskie and driver John Campbell, eventually scoring by one length, in 1:49.1.
A 54-1 longshot, Fox Valley Tribal, who briefly poked his head in front in the four-way battle before the wire, wound up third, a half-length further back, while Dave Panlone was a flying fourth on the inside.
The finest two and three-year-old pacers and trotters in North America will be showcased on Saturday evening, October 28, at Woodbine Racetrack when the eight championship Breeders Crown finals, worth a total of $5.1 million, are run.
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"He struggled a third place in a decent Arc"
Perhaps reverting to his customary running style contributed to his victory in the Japan Cup. Why they changed a well worked formula for the Arc I don’t know. He could have settled at the rear and come with a late scintillating run down the centre of the track and mowed them all down………then got disqualified.
Ah! That’s Canadian men for you graysonscolumn.
No wonder Constant got so angry,LOL!!
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The dirt tracks are designed to drain to the rail and that in turn forms a bias, one that is generally understood and accepted by the handicapping public.
What amuses me is their vocal reluctance to accept Polytrack, quoting unacceptable bias towards closers, or depending on the track conditions (tweaking) speed horses. It’s almost as though they believe that bias didn’t exist before the advent of synthetic surfaces. The problem is, they have to now learn a new concept and are reluctant to do so.
Polytrack for instance, is designed to drain vertically, therefore eliminating the drainage towards the rail.
The handicappers appear to be the ‘only’ people negative to Polytrack, from a trainer/owner aspect, it’s been very well received for obvious reasons.
On the subject of Churchill and the Breeders Cup. I was talking to a friend of mine who was at the meeting and he said that the dirt track was very hard, so much so that the harrows were making very little indentation. It makes Invasor’s performance all the more commendable.
Adrian, in your view, was that description of the track accurate?
<br>Grimes, you should have remembered my post from Sept 19th, (One for the shortlist), then you wouldn’t have had a problem finding at least one winner,LOL!!
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(Edited by griff11 at 6:06 pm on Nov. 11, 2006)
I suspect there is a bit more to Kastoria’s run as she seemed to slip coming out of the stalls and ran with her tail raised until the first bend. Although she trailed the field, she did move up into a challenging position around the final bend, but never really picked up. Whether she didn’t like the soft ground, or something was amiss from the stalls incident, I don’t know.
Great to see Collier Hill put up a really good performance to hold off Deputy Go, especially for as he’s an 8yo. Dean McKeown gave him good ride, which is more than can be said for Mick Kinane in the E.P Taylor Stakes. A nice prize of $1.2million for the winning connections, may inspire a few more of your Euros to make the trip over. Blue Monday picked up $120,000 for fourth.
Wonderful to see Mac Benson take the E.P Taylor with his grand 3yo filly Arravale. He’s an old time trainer here, a real horseman, with some good supporting owners. He is the sort to let the horses do the talking and this one certainly has. She won the G1 Del Mar Oaks last time out, so was obviously good, but she had a bit to prove in this race. She’d never raced as far as the 10f’s before, nor raced on anything easier than good, but today the ground was no problem and the trip wasn’t either. Now they will have to think about the Breeders Cup.
Both of the Nicholls horses (Moss Vale and Peace Offering) finished out of the first three in the $500,000 G2 Neartic Stakes, with the race going to Fast Parade, who I believe was a $4,500 purchase as a yearling. ÂÂÂ
I see that the Racing Post have the ground as good, that may be a little deceptive, especially as they have had a fair amount of rain at times in the week and it’s raining quite heavy outside.
I’m an hour and a half away, but I doubt they’ve missed it.
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<br>Sorry Sir Harry, I wish I could give you an accurate answer.
I don’t know, it depends on whether the showers forecast actually arrive. I won’t be down until tomorrow and I’ll have a look then.
It’s not too warm, but the track does dry out quickly, so with no showers, I would expect g/s, certainly on the easy side of good. Last night (Friday) I was told it was soft. Forecast predicts, a chance of showers today and rain tomorrow.
If you have contact with someone over there with Kastoria, I would ask them, as the official Woodbine description could be slightly misleading.
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Canadian International.   G1  12f
SKY CONQUEROR emerged as the best local marathon runner (…….he means at 12f) on turf in the Spring and Summer time but missed valuable time early in the Autumn; used the prep for the Bunty Lawless at just a mile as his returning prep for this test of class and stamina.
KASTORIA an Irish based five year old mare who goes for the Aga Khan and trainer John Oxx, passed a test of stamina when capturing the Group 1 Irish St Leger Stakes at home at The Curragh last time under Mick Kinane; freshness is an asset; she seeks her fourth consecutive victory.
BLUE MONDAY raced at the Group 1 level at York and Sandown in the Summer time when third in consecutive events; he won England’s Arc prep at Newbury in September as the favourite; he gets a test of stamina here at 1 1/2 miles in his first race<br>outside Europe.
JAMBALAYA is better now than he was last year when he took part in this event; he stayed willingly when a second time lasix user in the Sky Classic Stakes, beaten only late by Breeders’ Cup Turf winner, Better Talk Now.
LAST ANSWER is most noted for his positive consistency on the edges in recent races; in the Sky Classic Stakes, he was the pacemaker until late when passed by Jambalaya and Better Talk Now at the last instant; he continues to train well.
METEOR STORM was runner up behind Relaxed Gesture in this event last season; he has had just a single start this year and that was in the Grade 2 Kelso at Belmont, traditionally a prep for the Breeders’ Cup Mile; he extends to 1 1/2 miles here and has good<br>references at the distance.
GO DEPUTY comes in for record setting trainer Todd Pletcher and is a leading contender; after a victory in the Grade 1 Sword Dancer in August at Saratoga; he followed up with a second in the Grade 1 Man O War last time when repelled by a key winner; the third place finisher, Showing Up, has since come back with a key win in the Jamaica Stakes.
COLLIER HILL is one of two runners in here along with Kastoria to capture the Irish St Leger, a noted test of stamina; he comes into this event following a victory in the Stockholm Cup a Group 3 event in Sweden which he also captured in 2004; he showed his class earlier this year when second in the Group 1, $5 million<br>Dubai Sheema Classic.
THE LAST DROP is a three year old against older runners competing for noted trainer Barry Hills and Richard Hills will once again ride; he was aboard for the significant English St Leger Stakes last time when runner up at 50-1; he is a son of the high class Galileo, a winner of the English and Irish Derby.
RELAXED GESTURE took his initial Grade 1 victory in this event last year with a resounding success on yielding ground; he was sharp on giving ground in the Spring when second to the outstanding Cacique; he was also in the shadow of that one recently in the Grade 1 Man O War with Go Deputy second.
I am interested in Kastoria (but can’t get committed yet) and the lads down there seem quite bullish, but two things concern me though. The drop in trip is one, although she does travel well and a good long stretch to run at, the other is the ground with it being softer. Not sure soft would equate to Irish soft, but there will be plenty of give in the ground. She strikes me as the ‘classy’ type in the race and still open to improvement.
Of ‘ours’, I have a soft spot for Jambalya. He ran last year as a 3yo against better horses than this year, Grey Swallow, Electrocutionist, Yeats and the winner, Relaxed Gesture (in this year). He was a little over-faced, but he ran well and the experience didn’t do any harm. Like many of the others, he’s a G2 horse, but always gives his best. Catherine Day-Phillips believes he needs the fast ground, which he won’t get here, but I think all ground comes alike to him and he will appreciate this step back up to 12f. He was beaten 31/4l earlier in the year by Sky Conqueror in the G2 Northern Dancer Cup over C&D, but I would expect him to reverse that tomorrow.
The US horse and likely favourite Go Deputy has to be respected on his form in the Sword Dancer and Man O’ War, but again the expected soft ground would be a concern.
Neartic Stakes G2  6f
MOSS VALE is one of two here for trainer David Nicholls; he had a Group 3 victory in the Phoenix at The Curragh in August and most recently missed narrowly in one of Europe’s most important sprints when third in the Prix De L’Abbaye on Arc day; he figures to be a stout factor with Kinane.
DARK CHEETAH was fourth at Belmont in the Lure Stakes last time, an event that came off the lawn and was taken by Around The Cape who is here.
ATTICUS KRISTY was here for the Nearctic last year and ran well in third; he was back for the Highlander in June when a tight second; he retained his sharpness with a recent win at Kentucky Downs at this distance for Merrill Scherer.
SGT. BERT was fresh when he recently won the Woodford at Keeneland at five and a half furlongs on turf with an outside rally; that result gives him some standing here.
SILVER TIMBER is by Prime Timber, a developing source of turf success; he won three in a row on the lawn over the Summer time before a wide trip stopped his streak at Monmouth last time for Linda Rice.
METRO METEOR is one of two here for Linda Rice and has<br>banked consecutive wins in New York on turf sprinting; he has the right style for this course and it is just a case of his ability to handle giving ground.
FAST PARADE seems to have been aimed for this event given his scheduling and work pattern at San Luis Rey; he won big at Del Mar in August at five furlongs on turf; Pat Valenzuela rides.
MAN OF ILLUSION was here for the Highlander and was fifth as the heavy favourite with Atticus Kristy a better second and that one is here; he was sixth last time at Keeneland against Sgt. Bert.
TERRIFIC CHALLENGE was here for a couple of races in the Spring and was second to the tough Dave The Knave; he has now won three stakes in a row on turf at Monmouth and that gives him standing here.
IN SUMMATION shortened to five furlongs to run on turf last time and finished narrowly beate,n supplying a good close against early fractions that looked impossibly fast; he seeks his first win on turf.
PEACE OFFERING is brought in by trainer David Nicholls; he showed good form in Paris at five furlongs two starts ago when a close second in a Group 3 event and has since run well on heavy ground.
OLD DODGE was here for the Nearctic last October when fifth beaten two lengths; he was beaten out only late in the Grade 1 Shadwell Mile last time and will now shorten to six furlongs.
AROUND THE CAPE captured the Grade 3 Jaipur at Belmont in the Spring and that is a key reference; he won most recently in the Lure Stakes, an event that came off turf; he retained his sharpness in 1.08.3.
