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St Leger 2006

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  • #2953
    Lingfield
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    • Total Posts 919

    Second favourite Youmzain misses the Leger.<br>Owner reckons won’t get the trip and goes for the Prix Niel in France the next day.<br>Seems a bizarre decision to me. Horse has form on soft and yielding and notwithstanding there is plenty of rain up north at the moment this year’s race  (week away anyway) looks especially weak and the distance is shorter than usual.<br>Surely the horse would have been placed at least.<br>Tough for ante post backers

    #76257
    FlatSeasonLover
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    • Total Posts 2065

    Did you back Youmzain Lingfield?

    It does look very week this year but if the horse doesn’t stay then it is the correct decison not to run.

    #76258
    SirHarryLewis
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    • Total Posts 1208

    Quote: from Lingfield on 1:42 pm on Sep. 2, 2006[br]Second favourite Youmzain misses the Leger.<br>Owner reckons won’t get the trip and goes for the Prix Niel in France the next day.<br>Seems a bizarre decision to me. Horse has form on soft and yielding and notwithstanding there is plenty of rain up north at the moment this year’s race  (week away anyway) looks especially weak and the distance is shorter than usual.<br>Surely the horse would have been placed at least.<br>Tough for ante post backers<br>

    channon thought it was a no brainer to run him but his owner is his own man and made a good call with regard to his last race when channon wasnt interested in running him.

    SHL

    #76259
    Lingfield
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    • Total Posts 919

    No I didn’t back it .<br>I’m not a great one for ante post anyway plus the owner was deliberating publically over whether or not to run.<br>I feel that his decision is the wrong one and sense that trainer, jockey and racing manager probably think the same.<br>This year’s Leger seems especially weak and now has an odds on fav.<br>What actually is the point of it? The quality seems to diminish year by year and it gets messed around by venue and even distance this year.<br>Many connections won’t go for it as they don’t want their horse tarred unfavourably as a stayer for breeding purposes.<br>Should it be stripped of classic status and perhaps go all aged, open to geldings etc?

    #76260
    Sailing Shoes
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    • Total Posts 368

    Certainly not – It’s just that Derby winners don’t go for the race anymore – which is a shame – It is a classic, but sadly isn’t treated as such by trainers or owners.

    #76261
    Zoz
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    • Total Posts 703

    Agreed Sailing Shoes.

    Some good fillies have run in the race in recent years, but with regards to stallion values it seems not only that Derby winners would be commercially compromised by running in, let alone winning the race, but that after they win their Derby they are already less marketable.

    Sad indeed.

    With regards to Youmzain, the owner calls the shots but it is a shame given how weak the race already was this year.

    The presence of Ballydoyle in the race is one thing but even they run back numbers, with the possible exception of Scorpion last year, you get the impression they would like to land a soft Group One in the hope of producing a dual purpose sire.

    #76262
    guskennedy
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    • Total Posts 759

    It’s a ridiculous decision. Youmzain shapes like a stayer and would have a very decent chance in the race. He’s not likely to land a Group One at 12f.

    #76263
    Lingfield
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    • Total Posts 919

    Of course the owner pays the bills and is therefore always right! He also got it right going for the Voltigeur when the trainer didn’t want to.This time the trainer wanted to go for the Leger, describing it as a "no brainer" decision and reading between the lines the racing manager thought likewise. However the owner has his own strong ideas about his horses and their running, choice of jockey etc.<br>My point was that this year’s Leger is a typically weak renewal .Why shouldn’t the horse have stayed? Youmzain has form on yielding ground and won over  1 mile 5f  at Newmarket. He will have strengthened up in the meantime. York ground currently good-soft and drying. He would have most likely been placed at least in a race which  still carries classic status. <br>Instead he goes for the Niel with a view to being supplemented for the Arc. Not sure about strength of the Niel ( Epsom Derby runner up goes) but I’d say Youmzain’s chances in the Arc against top class older horses are nil.<br>To my mind strange campaigning.<br>

    (Edited by Lingfield at 4:48 pm on Sep. 3, 2006)

    #76264
    apracing
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    • Total Posts 3105

    <br>I reckon one key reason why the Leger is no longer popular is that it’s a Group 1 race. That sounds daft, but winning it means that the horse has to carry a penalty in almost all the races that you would logically target as a 4-y-old – particularly the Yorkshire and Goodwood Cups, because they are group 2 contests.

    If it wasn’t a ‘classic’ it would have lost Group 1 status years ago on the normal basis of the ratings of the winners and the overall ratings standard of the race.

    As things stand, it doesn’t create commercial stallions and it reduces the prospects of the winner for the following season. Hence, not very attractive and I reckon the decison by Jaber Abdullah makes perfect sense. The horse has established himself for future stud value by winning the Voltigeur (and might have beaten the Leger winner in the process), and he’s more likely to get invites to the big international races if he wins in France over 12F than he is by winning the Leger.

    AP<br>

    #76265
    guskennedy
    Member
    • Total Posts 759

    It all depends, I suppose, on your view of Youmzain’s capabilities at 12f. Mine, for what it’s worth, is that he’s not got what it takes to win in the best company at that trip. He only just pipped a blatant non-stayer in the Voltigeur and he looks for all the world like a horse who’d improve for a step up to the Leger distance. The Leger having cut up like it has, Youmzain would have had a genuine chance of winning a quarter of a million "pot" and it doesn’t make sense to me to bypass that in favour of tilting at other, theoretically more lucrative, windmills.

    He’ll probably win the Niel, Arc, Breeders’ Cup and Japan Cup now.

    #76266
    Lingfield
    Member
    • Total Posts 919

    AP, <br>Interesting post from you and I know that you speak as an owner.<br>Personally I agree with Gus that the horse probably isn’t good enough to win a Group 1 over 12f and certainly won’t be winning an Arc against classy older horses. Would you agree?<br>Do you think that the horse stood a better chance of winning sizeable prize money in the Leger which has now been passed over together with  the status of being classic winner/placed?<br>Does winning the Voltiguer (Group 2 I think) guarantee a stallion career?<br> Wouldn’t a better approach be to get what you can out of the horse this season then flog it to Godolphin if there was a plan to keep it in training and it was deemed hard to place? Believe this owner has sold horses to Godolphin before.<br>What is the future of the Leger? Should it be kept as a goal for non Group winners of the classic generation or is it so stigmatised for breeding and penalty purposes that it should be scrapped or the conditions changed e.g. all aged , geldings in? <br>Is there a need for an alternative race in the UK as an option to the Arc trials run in France?<br>

    #76267
    Drone
    Participant
    • Total Posts 5124

    Quote: from apracing on 5:15 pm on Sep. 3, 2006[br]<br>I reckon one key reason why the Leger is no longer popular is that it’s a Group 1 race. That sounds daft, but winning it means that the horse has to carry a penalty in almost all the races that you would logically target as a 4-y-old – particularly the Yorkshire and Goodwood Cups, because they are group 2 contests.

    I’ve long thought that the five Cup races, being so distinctive and having a long history on a par with the the five Classics, should all be elevated to Group 1 and all of them restricted to 4yo+.

    The Yorkshire Cup as an early season G1 for 4yo+ over the Leger distance akin to the Coronation Cup over 12f and culminating in a G1 Jockey Club Cup so further enhancing what is supposed to be ‘Champions’ day at Newmarket.

    The St Leger, like it’s French and Irish counterparts, to be opened up to older horses and it form along with the Geoffrey Freer, Lonsdale Cup and Park Hill a series of  Group 2 3yo+ staying events ‘subordinate’ to the Group 1 Cup races.

    Of course in an ideal world the St Leger would be the pre-eminent race for 3yo and the race all owners/breeders would want to win. Stamina and robustness are virtues; speed and fragility vices.

    It’s nice here in cloud-cuckoo land.

    #76268
    apracing
    Participant
    • Total Posts 3105

    <br>Lingfield,

    That’s a lot of questions in one post!

    I’m sure the owner doesn’t need the prize money, so I don’t think that’s an issue.

    Whether winning a Grp 2 over 12F is better for a stallion career than winning a Grp 1 over 14F I’ll leave to the breeders to decide.

    Selling to Godolphin could be an option, but is a Leger winner any more use to them than anyone else? Have they bought any Leger winners in the past?

    What should happen to the Leger – to be honest, I’ve no idea, but realism would see it changed to a Grp 2. But then realism would see the St James Palace increased to 10F to form the middle leg of a revised Triple Crown starting with the 2000 Gns and completed by the Derby run in July rather than early June.  

    As Drone points out, welcome to cloud cuckoo land!

    AP

    #76269
    clivex
    Member
    • Total Posts 3420

    I can see why people prefer jumps….

    This is all rather reminisent of Arsene Wengers (hypocritcial tapping git) comments about rather finishing third in the premiership than winning the FA Cup.. :angry:

    Yes it makes commercial sense blah blah blah

    But surely the thrill of ownership is in winning the prizes with a little bit of kudos rather than say the Prix Neil, which is not the grandest group one by any means

    And yes, how much money do these people need?

    Its all a bit cold eyed. Does every owner have to behave like a bloody accountant?<br>

    #76270
    Lingfield
    Member
    • Total Posts 919

    Quote: from apracing on 10:25 am on Sep. 4, 2006[br]<br>Lingfield,

    That’s a lot of questions in one post!

    I’m sure the owner doesn’t need the prize money, so I don’t think that’s an issue.

    Whether winning a Grp 2 over 12F is better for a stallion career than winning a Grp 1 over 14F I’ll leave to the breeders to decide.

    Selling to Godolphin could be an option, but is a Leger winner any more use to them than anyone else? Have they bought any Leger winners in the past?

    What should happen to the Leger – to be honest, I’ve no idea, but realism would see it changed to a Grp 2. But then realism would see the St James Palace increased to 10F to form the middle leg of a revised Triple Crown starting with the 2000 Gns and completed by the Derby run in July rather than early June.  

    As Drone points out, welcome to cloud cuckoo land!

    AP

    <br>

    Godolphin have never bought a Leger winner from someone else but did of course buy a runner up in The Geezer, second of 6 when beaten a length by Scorpion.<br>Interesting if that decision would have been different if The Geezer had won the race and incurred Group 1 penalties

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