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HGM your final pargraph described Sea the Stars perfectly.You see with Frankel we have a classic winner;in Sea the Stars you have two classics and the Arc.Big big difference.Incidentally I believe that El Gran Seneor’Guineas was a much more "Classic"type of race.Behind EGS and filling the minor places were Chief Singer,Lear Fan and Rainbow Quest.One of the greatest fields in the Guineas ever.How many in Frankel’s Guineas were anything approaching that standard?
HGM – I think time will show that in defeating Excelebration he WAS beating a superstar. Look at Excel’s form in the 3 races he contested that didnt involve Frankel and you will see 111. Wins by 7 lengths in the German 2,000, 6 in the Hungerford and one and a half in the Prix Du Moulin in pretty desperate ground. Now with Ballydoyle I think you will see this horse plunder a lot of International mile races this year.
Then you have Immortal Verse who beat Goldikova and was clearly the best filly over a mile in Europe last season. She was beaten nearly 8 lengths.
He has also beaten a King George winner in Nathaniel, an Irish Derby winner in Treasure Beech, a multiple Group 1 winner in Dream Ahead (who beat Goldikova over 7 furlongs before you tell me he was just a sprinter) not to mention the Irish 2,000 Guineas winner.
The difference is of course that Frankel makes very good horses look ordinary. He destroys them. How many of his opponents have run poorly against him? They can’t cope with him.
Andyod – it is hard to argue with that phenomenal record of Sea The Stars. I suppose all I would say is that Frankel is not finished yet. He will never win a Derby and an Arc is also unlikely but a final CV of Dewhurst, 2,000 Guineas, St J, Sussex, QEII, Lockinge, POW, Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion and BC would not look too bad and might be slightly more comparable.
So far Frankel has beaten the winner of 29 Group 1’s and so still has some way to go to match the 44 of STS but, with another 6 races to, has every chance of doing that.
I imagine people will always have their favourites no matter what Frankel does this year but I know that I have never seen a horse like him.
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Have to agree with last post. I think time will tell that Excelebration is an exceptionally gifted miler easily comparable with Canford Cliffs, he’s just unfortunate to be born in the same year as perhaps the greatest thoroughbred ever.
Last seasons 2 year-old crop didn’t appear to have much depth with only Dabirsim and Camelot looking anything like good enough to lay down a challenge to Frankel, although there could be another sleeper like Excelebration to come through.
If Frankel can be as dominant over 10F against the likes of So You Think and Cirrus, then that could propel him to that elusive 145+ Timeform figure.
I think if Tom Queally can resist pressing the panic button until under 2F out then we will all see something truly spectacular. If outstanding milers like Excelebration, Canford Cliffs and Immortal Verse can’t go with him, what hope would the likes of SYT have.
If Frankel does manage to repeat his exploits of last year and better stiil, wins Group 1s at 10f, whilst also seeing off the best of the younger generation, then I have no doubt that Timeform will rate him the best ever – thus usurping the great Sea-Bird, who, as I pointed out in some other thread, *"should have been awarded a Timeform rating of 149" (* John Randall ), as they chose to disregard the official winning distances of the 1965 Arc – instead, using their own methods of determining the distances. To me, Sea-Bird will always be the best middle distance horse, unless something comes along in the near future and wins Group One 12 furlong races against top opposition with even more nonchalent ease than he did.
I agree with Miss Woodford about Secretariat – to an extent. He was a monster during his Triple Crown period – although he was also a very good 2 year old, winning horse of the year. However, his later defeats to Onion and Prove Out illustrated that when a trainer ( Allen Jerkins in tis case ) devises a way of beating a "legend" by not allowing that horse (Secretariat ) too much rope, then it can be done – whether the subsequent excuses for Big Red’s defeats were valid or not.
I also think that it is folly to draw any comparisons between champion dirt race horses like Secretariat ( yes, I know he ran twice on turf, albeit a very different variety ; ) ) and turf champions like Sea-Bird. Both were best on their surface and in their era – but again, I may have to defer to Miss Woodward on her assertion that Man O’ War was most probably the greatest American racehorse of all.
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